Addressing Racism/Anti-LGBTQ Speech on Off-Platform Media
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@Xenagos The right to free speech is an abstract concept, it does not “come” from anywhere, but is instead something that can either be quashed or upheld, similar to the right to life. A government could kill all of its citizens, or it could not. An organization can uphold free speech or it could not.
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@cyclowns Again, this situation is different because you are facing consequences from your peers, not from the entity in charge. What if the government arrested you for screaming? That is a violation of free speech.
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Hit submit too soon, sorry.
“haver thicker skin” is an excuse bigots use to keep saying hurtful shit. It also in this context means “stop letting hurtful things hurt you” which no. I’m not gonna be quiet about hurtful things because again, people are saying those things to be hurtful.
I think policing private discords would be a fucking incredibly difficult task from the RGL side of things, but I also think it’s silly to say that people using bigoted language is good, fine, and not a reflection how they see others.
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@Papaya let me remind you that RGL is not the government. RGL is not a faceless entity that lives above you and controls your life. it’s a group of people that own and moderate a tf2 league. in what sense is this scenario not equivalent?
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@cyclowns Because RGL as an organization is in charge of the league RGL. That is like saying “the government is just a bunch of individuals who run a country, so they don’t have to uphold your rights” When it comes to bans or unbans, RGL DOES in fact control whether you can play in RGL or not, so in this instance specifically RGL is analogous to a government entity.
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@Papaya said in Addressing Racism/Anti-LGBTQ Speech on Off-Platform Media:
@cyclowns Again, this situation is different because you are facing consequences from your peers, not from the entity in charge. What if the government arrested you for screaming? That is a violation of free speech.
Okay, so someone makes a PUG group, and says if you say slurs you’re banned. They’re the entity in charge, is that restricting your free speech?
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@Xenagos In the context of the PUG group, yes. In the context of RGL, no.
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@Papaya said in Addressing Racism/Anti-LGBTQ Speech on Off-Platform Media:
That is like saying "the government is just a bunch of individuals who run a country, so they don’t have to uphold your rights
the difference here is that RGL choosing not to associate with you isn’t “not upholding rights” because the right to a TF2 league doesn’t exist
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@Papaya It is not. When you use these forums or any RGL platform you have no rights whatsoever to use them.
RGL =/= Any form of government.
If we actually wanted to, we could make it against the rules to watch anime and ban everyone for it. Its within our scope.
On that note:
Lets all return to the original topic and stop going off-topic.
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@Papaya so in any group EVER that you make, you have to tolerate everything that anyone says, and if you do anything about it (like choosing to not associate with them), you’re violating their rights?
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@darzie People used to say hurtful shit to my face all the time in real life and guess what I did? I got thicker skin. It requires much, much thinner skin to be able to handle someone saying something in a private discord that hardly affects you than to handle it getting said to your face.
Stop letting other people have power over you and your life will be much better.
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@cyclowns What? I am aware the right to a tf2 league does not exist. This argument is about whether RGL should uphold global values in their organization or not. Just because they aren’t legally obligated to doesnt mean they shouldn’t
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Mothership Again, my argument isnt that you have the right to use these forums. My argument is that you should be able to do so. Weather you ACTUALLY can or not is up to RGL.
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why are all these posts deleted
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@Papaya if i post porn and gore on the forums, should that just be allowed because if it was removed they’d be violating my speech?
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Mothership said in Addressing Racism/Anti-LGBTQ Speech on Off-Platform Media:
If we actually wanted to, we could make it against the rules to watch anime and ban everyone for it. Its within our scope.
No more spy mains
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Tbh I feel like if you’re gonna have a competitive community, you’re gonna get players that have different opinions and beliefs than others. I think if someone is with a friend group just chillin and said a slur or something anti-lgbt then they shouldn’t have to be banned from the league entirely for it. As long as they are not hurting those around them within the league or the TF2 community then leave it at that. It’s borderline discriminating against people that have different opinions.
Do I think we should let people be toxic and racist within the league? Not really, no. But RGL is a competitive gaming league that at least from what I hear is open for everyone to play in as long as they follow the guidelines put in place. Imo if someone in this league went to another players Instagram page and saw “I hate ” in their bio, they should just not associate with that person. RGL would be invading the privacy of its players at this point. It’s not a league where players require background checks and need a security clearance to play.
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@cayorne rgl can deny service for behavior outside rgl spaces like any private organization, like universities can expel students for racial slurs anywhere for example
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some more scenarios to consider:
- Someone spams a million posts, all of which are genuine opinions being expressed, on the RGL forums. Is it ‘violation of free speech’ to remove them?
- You invite someone to your private discord, and after a while they say something that you aren’t comfortable with or makes you not want to associate with them, Is it ‘violation of free speech’ to ban them from your discord?
- A pug group starts up, and bans someone for screaming the N word during a pug. Is this a ‘violation of free speech’?
the answers to all of these are: obviously fucking not, because their speech hasn’t actually been restricted. even if you are a free speech absolutist, the universal right to free speech says nothing about the right to have an audience, if the audience isn’t willing
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i should say that I’m not even necessarily FOR everything said in the OP. this is mostly just because I think it’s logistically difficult, and it doesn’t really solve the actual issue here, which is the TF2 competitive community’s culture and general attitude towards a lot of shit