seasonal "point system sucks" thread

#1907
Topic created · 80 Posts · 506 Views
  • @Xenagos If only there was some team willing to take this heroic dive. Cannot think of one team ever that has perhaps abused this rule to get last place 🤔

  • @cayorne that just looks like an issue with FF wins giving full match points. Which was not how it was originally iirc, but was changed to full MP because people complained that they should not be punished because another team died or did not show up for the match.

    You are currently arguing that that team that got those FF do not deserve to make playoffs because of those teams dying or not showing up, when they had no control over the situation. There is no winning in this, someone will be mad.


    The situation does suck, but also take note that the FF issue would still exist in a strictly W/L structure. all it takes is one 4-3 team vs a 4-3 team with a FF.

  • @Mothership this team did not deserve a playoff spot, but due entirely to the fact that it is predicated on rounds taken, they got one

    i don’t get keeping the whole system as is when you could very easily, and without any kind of backlash eliminate 50% of these problems

  • @Xenagos Why not add Borneo?

  • @Mothership
    So if someone is going to be mad, why not enforce what objectively makes more sense than changing policy every season or 2 to address people who whine? I understand getting screwed out of playoffs because a team forfeited and you didnt get full points is frustrating, but I would argue that it is much worse to screw a team with a winning record out of playoff contention because a team with a losing record got a clutch forfeit win.

  • @Sputn1x dog map

  • @Mothership its not an issue with FF wins giving full match points and its entirely an issue that win loss doesnt determine getting into playoffs! because, guess what, YOU DONT DROP ROUNDS WHEN YOU GET A FORFEIT WIN.

  • @pajaro said in seasonal "point system sucks" thread:

    @Mothership its not an issue with FF wins giving full match points and its entirely an issue that win loss doesnt determine getting into playoffs! because, guess what, YOU DONT DROP ROUNDS WHEN YOU GET A FORFEIT WIN.

    @Mothership said in seasonal "point system sucks" thread:

    …Which was not how it was originally iirc, but was changed to full MP because people complained that they should not be punished because another team died or did not show up for the match.


    The situation does suck, but also take note that the FF issue would still exist in a strictly W/L structure. all it takes is one 4-3 team vs a 4-3 team with a FF.

  • if its in a W/L why not have a tiebreaker system where it goes head to head, match points (extremely unlikely to be tied), harder schedule and if they somehow tie all 3 of those categories, they play a tiebreaker match

    with the current system its just a shitfest of teams who didn’t win games taken spots from teams that did

    there is no reason to not fix half of something, even if the whole thing cannot be fixed

  • @cayorne said in seasonal "point system sucks" thread:

    HOW THE FUCK IS THIS EVEN A THING, AND BETTER YET HOW DID THE ADMINS ALLOW THIS TO HAPPEN???

    Wah wah how could this happen! I fucking hate the rgl admins and anyone involved with rgl! grrr I’m angry!

    forum staff have no control over the rules
    div admins have no control over the rules

    The 2 amateur teams have a .66 MP difference.

    How about instead of being a literal box of hair when it comes to debating a rule or trying to get something changed, how about you actually think about the situation instead of banging your head on the keyboard shouting “MP SUCK LOL GIVE US W/L” like a chimp. When it comes to arguing for a change you people can be completely fucking inept.

    This and the CSN vs b99 situation are the 2 most recent and relevant examples I can recall of a team with a worse W/L but more MP getting into playoffs over a team with a better W/L but less MP.

    Both CSN and Cat Lovers had 2 ff wins. CSN’s rgl page does not list 2 ff wins, but I believe their steel match was a FF. I could not find logs for this match when searching using logs.tf/dev features. CSN and b99 also had a .66 MP difference

    How about this, instead of changing from MP to W/L, you make multiple FFs have a linear decay
    First FF: 3 Points
    Second FF: 2 Points
    Third FF if that ever happens: 1 Point
    With Multiple FFs having decay in points, both b99 and It Is What It Is would have made playoffs over csn and cat lovers respectively.

    @lYnn said in seasonal "point system sucks" thread:

    Add this to the post season survey and then don’t withhold the results 😳

    Every single season it was polled MP won as far as I can remember. It wasn’t polled in s9, idk about s8, here’s the results from s7

    Would you like teams to be ranked using Win/Loss or Match Points. We currently use Match Points.

    Results
    139 (36%) - Win/Loss
    211 (54%) - Match Points
    40 (10%) - No opinion

    @Makkawaffel said in seasonal "point system sucks" thread:

    @Mothership
    So if someone is going to be mad, why not enforce what objectively makes more sense than changing policy every season or 2 to address people who whine?

    RGL’s entire ruleset is based on being as objective as possible wherever it is applicable. It doesnt even matter because when RGL is objective they just get slammed for not being subjective (such as the thank you letter to rgl post where antlers gets a long ban for missing his like 4th demo request and people want him to be unbanned because “he’s a community caster and a good member!”) People don’t want objectivity, they want whatever favors them in the moment.

    It’s also rare for RGL to quickly readjust rule changes after people complain. I don’t know where you get the idea that rgl changes policy every season. RGL will change things when they make mistakes, sure. Willmatic fucking up the schedule, trying to hide his fuckup by adding a week between reg season and then playoffs, and then removing it immediately after realizing he cant do that out of fucking nowhere. RGL removing the bans off of MAL players when it came to be known that the slurs said were from pregame and not from the actual scrim, despite them appearing in the scrim logs. These incidents have nothing to do with rule changes.

    Wrapping back to FFs having a decay, if you really think this won’t solve the issue of MP vs W/L, then find an instance where FFs have a decay wouldn’t matter in the case of a team with a better W/L but worse MP losing playoffs to a team with worse W/L but better MP.

    Technically, yes, if every team ffs against 1 team, then they’d get cucked with 6 MP and probably wouldn’t make playoffs. To avoid this, a logarithmic decay might be better. I don’t know and I don’t want to do the math for it, but it is totally something RGL could look into.

  • @Micahlele said in seasonal "point system sucks" thread:

    People don’t want objectivity, they want whatever favors them in the moment.

    Honestly this a major point that needs to be assessed when these types of threads come into existence. No one really ever bring it up as its not objectively relevant to the direct discussion, however it is something that is not forgotten.

  • @Micahlele said in seasonal "point system sucks" thread:

    This and the CSN vs b99 situation are the 2 most recent and relevant examples I can recall of a team with a worse W/L but more MP getting into playoffs over a team with a better W/L but less MP.

    While making playoffs or not is part of the issue, this also impacts playoff seeding of teams. It’s significantly more frequent that teams with worse W/L records end up being seeded higher in playoffs than teams with better W/L records, often having lost to said teams earlier in the season.

  • @Xenagos said in seasonal "point system sucks" thread:

    @Micahlele said in seasonal "point system sucks" thread:

    This and the CSN vs b99 situation are the 2 most recent and relevant examples I can recall of a team with a worse W/L but more MP getting into playoffs over a team with a better W/L but less MP.

    While making playoffs or not is part of the issue, this also impacts playoff seeding of teams. It’s significantly more frequent that teams with worse W/L records end up being seeded higher in playoffs than teams with better W/L records, often having lost to said teams earlier in the season.

    ok but if ur still in playoffs you just win against the team that got higher seeded than you because you still have the option. And if you lose well then sucks to suck. If the seeding is like 7 vs 8 in a swiss bracket then who cares ur losing to the 1st and 2nd seed 90% of the time anyway and it would not make that big of a difference.

    However, the team that doesn’t make playoffs doesn’t get the chance to play more and continue their game. It ends and there is nothing they can do about it.

  • @Micahlele >unironically strawmanning me on the forums
    .>comedy chevrons

    the line of reasoning that because someone is harshly criticizing how rgl does something means that they patently hate rgl and everything about it is stupid. i think rgl has issues, yes, however on the whole it is a generally well run league. we have actual prizepools, responsive admin teams who actually give a singular shit unlike back in UGC, excellent anti-sandbagging policies, and the div admins generally do a great job officiating the league. even the anticheat team, although very slow, is very good.

    to ignore all of the context around the point and just say “well there was a .66 difference LOLE!!!” and trying to “own” people on the forums by throwing around ad homs that you didn’t come up with, doesn’t help anything.

    this is something that by all measures, literally makes no sense whatsoever. this team got shitstomped almost every week. as a matter of fact if you remove the two maps affected by forfeits, their records become 1-4, and 4-1.

    match points isn’t an unusable system, nobody is saying that, what we’re saying is that a swiss style bracket paired with match points, can give results that don’t make sense and can seem unfair.

    i don’t know of any other league that has this type of seeding that totally ignores W/L, and to someone who has played sports their whole life, it seems odd that it works this way.

  • VlNTjnP.png

  • @Alto BBL posted a thread about this today i think

  • i think swiss divs is cool cuz it sounds cooler than round robin

  • @cayorne said in seasonal "point system sucks" thread:

    to ignore all of the context around the point and just say “well there was a .66 difference LOLE!!!” and trying to “own” people on the forums by throwing around ad homs that you didn’t come up with, doesn’t help anything.

    I bring up the .66 difference because that means having multiple FFs have a decay for points so the team with the worse W/L will have fewer points. So the problem is solved. I don’t just bring it up to say “lol it’s close who cares”.

    I see no problem with calling you completely fucking useless while also providing a solution to the problem in the same post.

    this is something that by all measures, literally makes no sense whatsoever. this team got shitstomped almost every week. as a matter of fact if you remove the two maps affected by forfeits, their records become 1-4, and 4-1.

    Woah! So basically all of their points came from forfeits and this means the way forfeits are calculated in relation to the MP system should be reworked to make it fairer for all the other teams.

    Almost like multiple FFs having a decay in the value of MP provided is a possible solution to the problem.

  • @shotaway based terryposter

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