S10 Analysis: Why Swiss shouldn't be used next season

#1931
Topic created · 32 Posts · 204 Views
  • Honestly the biggest change that needs to happen, regardless of W/L vs Points, Swiss vs RR, Challenger vs no Challenger; is that we need to increase the length of the season to allow more time in flexibility of schedules, more accurate seedings for playoffs, and to better match 6’s schedule instead of doing our own thing that starts one week behind for seemingly no reason.

    I.E.> We need more matches during the regular season

    Edit: Also Swiss has always been bad and we have known it has been bad since UGC days. The only reason we should do Swiss now is if we have no choice (divs too big, etc).

  • @Mothership just a question for clarification, why not a smaller season. it would save time making the polls (joke)

  • @Mothership on a real note, it would allow us the potential to squeeze an extra season into the year, could reduce the map pool for something that most people would like, least in my eyes

  • @touca said in S10 Analysis: Why Swiss shouldn't be used next season:

    @Mothership on a real note, it would allow us the potential to squeeze an extra season into the year, could reduce the map pool for something that most people would like, least in my eyes

    More seasons are not better, and shorter seasons are not better.

    I am not a div admin, or a format staff, so take this with a grain of salt,

    …but there is a considerable amount of work that goes into making each season happen. most of the work for a season/format is from just getting it off the ground. Think placements, restrictions, setting up the website, etc etc. Adding more seasons means more of that, and admin burn out would be immense.

    Also shorter seasons means less matches and less accurate seedings for playoffs. All the debate we are having is on RR vs. Swiss and more notably W/L vs MP. I personally prefer RR and round MP over that, but more matches negates any kind of lead those systems would have, and at that point, simpler systems prevail.

    If we had lets say, only two seasons a year, that were both like 12 weeks long lets say, W/L would be better as a simpler record, we could have RR for all the divs practically (12 week season means 13 team RR) and seedings would be super accurate. This would also leave more room and time between seasons for more eloquently planned out cups.

  • @Mothership yeah, i agree with the points that you’ve provided. I guess that leaves the question as to how maps would be decided, but I won’t bloviate in respect to BBL’s original response

  • @touca said in S10 Analysis: Why Swiss shouldn't be used next season:

    @Mothership yeah, i agree with the points that you’ve provided. I guess that leaves the question as to how maps would be decided, but I won’t bloviate in respect to BBL’s original response

    oh we would be fucked in that regard. but we could just add borneo and make next season 8 weeks. Its something we can do, but anything beyond that needs more maps the community agrees is good enough for competitive play, or we would need to repeat maps.

    (as you see I am willing to give up a lot of what I think is best for something I think is more important)

  • new season same thread

  • @BMPD said in S10 Analysis: Why Swiss shouldn't be used next season:

    new season same thread

    new season same thread

  • @rn fax. need to incorporate this next season @admins

  • @Mothership I’d rather add in cascade and lakeside rather than borneo, it would keep it to 4 koth and 4 stopwatch

  • Was grinning the entire time I read this, excellent analysis! The graphs especially were very well thought-out/chosen and informative. You should consider going into Data Science.

  • Excellent write up BBL. I don’t really care to much about the math, but swiss is just super prone to screwing some teams over. In hindsight, I think my team (Vindicators) ended up getting punished for taking a round off Train Station during week 1. If we had lost 2-0, then we would have been placed against a bottom team; instead, we were placed against the current 2nd place advanced team. In a swiss system, I feel like the optimal thing to do would just to be to sandbag/lose early in the season and rack up points against the bad teams that die mid season (no disrespect to Broken Mice)

  • @Pain-Seer or add another steel-like for 3 koth 3 pl 2 steel like 🙂

  • @Pain-Seer said in S10 Analysis: Why Swiss shouldn't be used next season:

    @Mothership I’d rather add in cascade and lakeside rather than borneo, it would keep it to 4 koth and 4 stopwatch

    oh you right, but if we add them all in, 9 week season, 10 team invite, 10 team Advanced with RR. !!!

  • @Mothership I have no issue with this

  • This seems like something RGL staff should consider. Maybe put a question in the end of season polls.

    I can’t tell if my sarcasm detector is broken - but I’m going to put this here for the sake of clarity
    alt text

    I know this isn’t what’s being recommended, but tangentially relevant quote from discord

    A round robin for all divisions effectively means 14+ divisions
    logistically, how do you handle who gets into which division

    If HL has two matches a week, you’d have 14 a season and it would fix a lot of the issues when it comes to swiss
    Source:

    Copy pasting from my discord #discussions post

    I think to summarize my understanding: Swiss is rarely ideal but often necessary.

    my biggest issue [with BBL’s Document] was that it felt less like an analysis and more like an argument with little weighing or discussion of pro/cons - a good case study, but the conclusions didn’t really have me convinced in the recommended actions.
    From a 6s mentor POV , I feel obligated to mention that I’m frequently annoyed at the difference between AM 6s and IM 6s in their formats, and I really would rather move toward standardization of formats rather than a half-league Swiss or half-league RR, but I also can understand that a perfect solution might not exist.

  • You can easily expand a season without increasing the map pool by making every week a pick/ban. Alternatively, if it has to be one map per week there’s always coalplant, borneo, ramjam, badwater, and gravel pit, which are not all completely ideal but they do all have fans and have all been proven to be playable and are not absolute garbage in hl (I’m personally not a fan of badwater but it’s definitely not on par with barnblitz or 5cp).

    I think a longer season would be fun, and as stated above, it would better ensure that the best teams make playoffs - fewer fluke wins for worse teams that can have a large effect on placement currently.

  • no divisions

    put everyone in the thunderdome

    2 5 month seasons

    win/loss

  • @watterson this but you can drop in and drop out at will and have to play at least 2/3 of the matches to qual for playoffs, which everyone plays in divs and is elimination

  • why dont teams just not die lmao

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