round robin advanced
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removed a div, move everyone down a div, makes sense to me
great part about people being âlow advâ is that they are also âhigh mainâ! what a concept!
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@Wize said in round robin advanced:
How would it feel for the IM champs to basically be put into Main when there are low advance level players at the top if we kept Advance at a limit of 8?
I donât even know if this is a hot take but the IM champs should struggle in main the next season, if theyâre coming into main and doing really well they probably shouldnât have been in IM.
Does it suck to play against advanced (or invite) players in main? Yeah obviously, but the way you rectify that is with more class restrictions, which I do have to commend the staff team on improving at.
Additionally, the top main team probably should be able to contend with/beat low advanced teams. If you limit advanced to 8 teams and have the teams that lose qualifiers playing in main, the other top teams should realistically be able to compete with them.
The solution to advanced level teams playing in main is probably not to have main level teams playing in advanced.
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porblem solved, alternatively consolidate AM and NC again. i remember in iron i would learn from the better teams, meanwhile now with all the noobs playing each other (no offense) they are all equally clueless. they will not learn without outside help.
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@Xenagos said in round robin advanced:
@Wize said in round robin advanced:
How would it feel for the IM champs to basically be put into Main when there are low advance level players at the top if we kept Advance at a limit of 8?
I donât even know if this is a hot take but the IM champs should struggle in main the next season, if theyâre coming into main and doing really well they probably shouldnât have been in IM.
Does it suck to play against advanced (or invite) players in main? Yeah obviously, but the way you rectify that is with more class restrictions, which I do have to commend the staff team on improving at.
Additionally, the top main team probably should be able to contend with/beat low advanced teams. If you limit advanced to 8 teams and have the teams that lose qualifiers playing in main, the other top teams should realistically be able to compete with them.
The solution to advanced level teams playing in main is probably not to have main level teams playing in advanced.
Read, understood, and noted.
I appreciate you for your interested regarding this topic.
I do agree that a team will only improve if they face tough opponents since the philosophy of âYou learn more from your losses then your gainsâ.
I think the mentality from what Iâve gathered at the moment is how can we make a decision based in Advance that wonât negatively impact Main. There has been a trend (from my perspective) of Invite players wanting to off-class in Advance or not wanting to play in Invite for a season because âthey think itâs too difficult or time consumingâ which for sure the time consuming part may apply depending on the teams dedication level to win. When this happens, it essentially causes a shift that if we limited advance to 8 teams, it forces players to move down to main (this is without challenger).
I believe we are trying to keep the status of Advance to be the âlast bossâ as if you perform well within the division, youâre then granted the opportunity to be invited to âInviteâ. As more invite players decide that the highest division is too much effort for them, more of them are wanting to participate within Advance. So, I believe from internal discussions, we are trying to find the right number for the division (whether it be 12 or 14) that will keep the status of Advance while also not drastically affecting Mainâs upper half. If that makes sense? I can clarify more in-depth if required or in another way.
-Wize
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@cayorne
This essentially was the original formatting but last season issues required us to expand Advance.
Appreciate the graphic! Better than my handwriting IRL. Haha.
-Wize
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@Wize I mean honestly a big issue is that there are more than 72 invite players (9 players on 8 teams). Most invite teams have a full roster of invite level players because there just isnât space in invite for every invite player. This means that if these players actually want play time their only other option is advanced, like you said.
I donât think this means that advanced should just then be anyone who wants to play advanced, which frankly is the perspective I think a lot of people have of it this season (going back to the idea of it being a prestigious div).
IMO the best solution is to push for more maps to be created for the format so that weâre able to have a longer season and therefore larger round robin divisions. (I donât think this should be done by bringing in ram jam/borneo/warmtic/millstone etc.) -
moving up in divs should be very punishing, main should be the biggest div because that should be the div where u actually learn the gamemode, u get punished by low adv players and it helps and it weeds out the bad players who arent willing to learn further improving the gamemode and the players, this was how most mid level hl played out like season 4-7. when challenger got added 0 punishment for ppl moving up rapidly happened, because as johnny mentioned
âall thatâs important to some players is the name of division they are in.â
and now that main has a stigma of being very bad and since ur not letting shit settle back in for a season, ur moving up bad main teams into adv and main continuing to have a terrible rep for being a place u dont wanna be stuck in. but idk thats my thoughts on itshoutout wize for actually acknowledging complaints and trying to figure out the situation and listening to the ppl :DD:DDD
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@ckrow said in round robin advanced:
âall thatâs important to some players is the name of division they are in.â
and now that main has a stigma of being very bad and since ur not letting shit settle back in for a season, ur moving up bad main teams into adv and main continuing to have a terrible rep for being a place u dont wanna be stuck in. but idk thats my thoughts on itMain used to actually be a serious div. admins need to just suck it up and put some teams in main. and deal with the TLs that are going to whine about it. All that moving teams up to advanced does is make it so that advanced is also seen as a bad div and then the only good div is invite until you do the same thing to invite that you did to main and advanced.
If you put good teams in main, then the div becomes something players want to play in again. Iâve said this discussing the topic with other people but Iâd happily play in main if it meant advanced being 8 teams because imo thatâs whatâs best for the format and if the team Iâm on canât cut it in advanced then I guess we just have to git gud.
shoutout wize for actually acknowledging complaints and trying to figure out the situation and listening to the ppl :DD:DDD
Also yeah this is great ty wize ^^^^
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@ckrow said in round robin advanced:
moving up in divs should be very punishing, main should be the biggest div because that should be the div where u actually learn the gamemode, u get punished by low adv players and it helps and it weeds out the bad players who arent willing to learn further improving the gamemode and the players, this was how most mid level hl played out like season 4-7. when challenger got added 0 punishment for ppl moving up rapidly happened, because as johnny mentioned
âall thatâs important to some players is the name of division they are in.â
and now that main has a stigma of being very bad and since ur not letting shit settle back in for a season, ur moving up bad main teams into adv and main continuing to have a terrible rep for being a place u dont wanna be stuck in. but idk thats my thoughts on itshoutout wize for actually acknowledging complaints and trying to figure out the situation and listening to the ppl :DD:DDD
@Xenagos said in round robin advanced:
@ckrow said in round robin advanced:
âall thatâs important to some players is the name of division they are in.â
and now that main has a stigma of being very bad and since ur not letting shit settle back in for a season, ur moving up bad main teams into adv and main continuing to have a terrible rep for being a place u dont wanna be stuck in. but idk thats my thoughts on itMain used to actually be a serious div. admins need to just suck it up and put some teams in main. and deal with the TLs that are going to whine about it. All that moving teams up to advanced does is make it so that advanced is also seen as a bad div and then the only good div is invite until you do the same thing to invite that you did to main and advanced.
If you put good teams in main, then the div becomes something players want to play in again. Iâve said this discussing the topic with other people but Iâd happily play in main if it meant advanced being 8 teams because imo thatâs whatâs best for the format and if the team Iâm on canât cut it in advanced then I guess we just have to git gud.
shoutout wize for actually acknowledging complaints and trying to figure out the situation and listening to the ppl :DD:DDD
Also yeah this is great ty wize ^^^^
Read, Acknowledged, and noted both of yours opinions.
I agree with both of your stances. I think the community needs to revive the spirit of competition a bit more again and if that requires having a season of configuring a format (thatâll stick permanently into the future) we should strive for that. I think a problem that sometimes staff has made, throughout the seasons, is created changes that require players who participate each season to have to deal with a inconsistent format. We need to change that whether it be an initiative on our end or the community requesting it.
A lot of changes are made because we try to adhere to what you guys want. Itâs a balancing act that sometimes certain staff members get unnecessary attention (trolling/insults). Each season varies due season to season (a lot of our community is either starting/in college, starting post college life, or young adults) so staff tries to make changes that benefits you all. Sometimes it works sometimes it doesnât. Nothings perfect but we have to work together to make things better. If the community provides constructive criticism, we as staff need to provide you guys the attention you deserve so that we can work towards creating a league thatâs of great quality for you and the future generations that participate within TF2s competitive scene.
At the end of the day, we play this game and participate within competitive TF2 cause we saw the older generation do what we are doing now, and it inspired us to grow and get better. A lot of us are now in the shoes/in charge of what the older generations left behind. So, we need to continue building upwards and respect/honor their work that they put in.
Appreciate the comments. I want to make sure that our players who take the time out of their day to express themselves and provide feedback get the respect, time, and attention they deserve.
Iâll be heading off here in a bit (I live on the east coast) but I will personally reply and read to every message that is posted within this forum thread while Iâm gone because I need you guys to make sure we keep the spirit and heart of HL alive and bring back a bit of it too. IMO, the players are what keep this league alive. So, you deserve our upmost respect.
I invite anyone within Main, Advance, or Invite to post here and I even ask you to invite your teammates/friends. I will and want to hear you. I will acknowledge you.
-Wize
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@cayorne ugc tin
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Honestly Constantly, Vibe, and wize hit the nail on the head. Ill try to provide more context to responses in this thread where I can. My responses are to an attempt to give an insight to my thought process, or opinions on certain topics.
@Constantly said in round robin advanced:
Main players, especially on the lower end of the division, seem to have an issue with Advanced/Invite players being within the division and view it as a âbrick wallâ they cannot beat.
As they rightfully should take issue with. To provide an example of what may have happened if Advanced was Round Robin this season:
4/8 Team slots are taken up by the losing Qual Teams and the Main Winners
The remaining 4 slots are taken up by the 4 best high to mid/high advanced teams.This would leave the remaining 6 mid-low advanced teams into Main. This leads 2 issues issues:
- Do you restrict the Advanced Teams for being in Main when they simply couldnât fit in Advanced
- Do you restrict them to keep in lines with our rules?
The first leads to upsetting the Advanced teams for not making the cut, and doing nothing wrong.
The second upsets the mid-high Main players who then have to deal with Advanced, and may the odd Invite player in their division. It basically leads to the playoff teams already being decided since the Advanced Teams would be so much better than everyone else.Changing Advanced from Swiss to Round Robin affects Main in a very serious way.
@vibeisveryo said in round robin advanced:
having more round-robin divs is not necessarily a bad thing. round-robin can be a healthy tournament format
In a vacuum, I agree having more Round Robin divisions would be a good thing. However when applying our rules to the divisions, Round Robin causes more trouble than Swiss.
@vibeisveryo said in round robin advanced:
there can be a double round robin, with 16 teams and two âconferencesâ
This is one thing I disagree with, mainly due to the notion that one âconferenceâ would be labeled as âeasierâ than the other. Which would lead into players going âOh you only got so far because you conference had all the bad teams!â I also expect it would be a nightmare trying to balance the conferences to be even in skill.
@Wize said in round robin advanced:
It has been discussed at meetings and looking at the polls and internal discussions, it just seems everyone is split.
To expand on this a bit: in the preseason for Season 11 I wanted Advanced to be Swiss. When we picked up new staff members we had a staff meeting to go over things like assigning roles and any thing they wanted to bring up regarding their division. Joey Lemons wanted me to consider being back Round Robin Advanced. I took my time to look over previous discussions, the Season 10 poll results about division size, the Main sandbagging results and the current teams trying to play in Advanced. I simply could not find a way to have Advanced be Round Robin, AND at the same time be fair and healthy to the Main Division. So when time came to place teams I ruled to have Advanced be Swiss. ˢáľáľĘłáśáľË˘: áľĘłáľË˘áľ á´šáľ
@Wize said in round robin advanced:
If Iâm gonna provide you a professional/mature response, I ask that you do the same moving forwardâŚIâll always try to sit down/communicate with players if you approach me or notify me. I take your questions/comments/concerns/suggestions seriously.
THIS. My DMs are literally always open and if you want to message me and have a mature conversation regarding why I made a choice I did I would love for you to do so. You may not agree with me, but Ill be happy to explain my stance.
@Xenagos said in round robin advanced:
Does it suck to play against advanced (or invite) players in main? Yeah obviously, but the way you rectify that is with more class restrictions
As I stated earlier in my post, slapping more class restrictions on Advanced Teams that did not make the cut only leads to upset the teams that are doing nothing wrong. An analogy to this would be having Invite Qualifier teams get restricted in Advanced for losing Qualifiers. They wanted to play in Invite, but failed to qualify, why are we punishing them?
@Wize said in round robin advanced:
There has been a trend (from my perspective) of Invite players wanting to off-class in Advance or not wanting to play in Invite for a season
This also has a very negative effect on Advanced and Main. The invite off class team essentially takes a spot away from a low Advanced team trying to improve. The low Advanced team is now in Main and the whole cycle of âshould we restrict themâ starts again. In addition, most of the time, off class teams are teams that are looking to have a fun season. What makes a team thatâs more likely trying to have fun, more worthy a 1 of 8 Advanced Slot from a team that wants to improve?
@Wize said in round robin advanced:
believe from internal discussions, we are trying to find the right number for the division (whether it be 12 or 14) that will keep the status of Advance while also not drastically affecting Mainâs upper half.
This has been exactly what Iâve been trying to do. I sincerely apologize if I have not made the clear.
@Xenagos said in round robin advanced:
Most invite teams have a full roster of invite level players because there just isnât space in invite for every invite player. This means that if these players actually want play time their only other option is advanced, like you said.
One thing the 6s team is doing is being less restrictive to teams trying to play in Invite, since they have something like 10-15 teams gunning for Invite, on top of the already established high and mid Invite teams. I would absolutely be down for doing something like this, however this would require teams to want to play in Invite. If I recall correctly, after the smoke settled from teams forming and dying, only 9ish teams TOTAL wanted to play in Invite.
@Xenagos said in round robin advanced:
IMO the best solution is to push for more maps to be created for the format so that weâre able to have a longer season and therefore larger round robin divisions. (I donât think this should be done by bringing in ram jam/borneo/warmtic/millstone etc.)
I wholeheartedly agree with this, except for the maps you listed. We have some plans to try to get some fresh maps added into the rotation. On the flip side, adding more matches to a season would in turn allow Swiss to preform better at finding the top teams in a division.
@Xenagos said in round robin advanced:
If you put good teams in main, then the div becomes something players want to play in again.
I agree! The thing we are trying to do, is have the âgood teamsâ in Main not feel like they are impossible obstacles that canât be overcome.
@Wize said in round robin advanced:
I think the community needs to revive the spirit of competition a bit more again
This may be a hot take, but I believe there is a general culture of HL to just go for easy wins and not really try to improve. At the end of the day this is one thing Iâm trying to change, the culture of play in the lowest division you can and just get free wins. Maybe I still have some UGC in me, I donât know.
@ckrow said in round robin advanced:
shoutout wize for actually acknowledging complaints and trying to figure out the situation and listening to the ppl :DD:DDD
wize is fucking GOATâd and I would give him a raise if I could.
I know it may not seem like it, since I have a tendency to keep to myself, however I DO in fact read these threads and try to take them into consideration when making changes or setting up the format. I will try to make this more well known moving forward, and I apologize for not doing so in the first place. At the end of the day we are all posting about what we think is best for Highlander, and I respect everyone for that. At the same time, I am trying to make changes for what I feel is best for Highlander using the resources at my disposal. We may have differing opinions, but we are on the same team. As stated, if you want to have a civil conversation with me feel free to shoot me a DM on Discord. Iâd be happy to answer any questions anyone may have.
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@WiLLmaTiC said in round robin advanced:
I agree! The thing we are trying to do, is have the âgood teamsâ in Main not feel like they are impossible obstacles that canât be overcome.
okay excuse my ignorance, but is it really that hard to just, push all the âgoodâ main teams down a div until they comply, im sure hurt their egos n shit but idk, what is like the obstacles youre talking about?
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@WiLLmaTiC first of all, thanks for taking the time to read and reply to everything in the thread.
As I stated earlier in my post, slapping more class restrictions on Advanced Teams that did not make the cut only leads to upset the teams that are doing nothing wrong. An analogy to this would be having Invite Qualifier teams get restricted in Advanced for losing Qualifiers. They wanted to play in Invite, but failed to qualify, why are we punishing them?
I think the amount of restrictions that would be required for low advanced teams playing in main would be pretty minimal. Iâm talking about high advanced/invite players playing in main on specifically high impact classes. a low advanced engie main playing engie in main is fine.
If I recall correctly, after the smoke settled from teams forming and dying, only 9ish teams TOTAL wanted to play in Invite.
This is going to be something that varies from season to season in HL just because thereâs less players than in 6âs. While this season the number of teams wanting to play invite was low that hasnât been true of every season. (Iâm also in favour of giving teams just a bye week if we increase the season to like 9 maps and thereâs not 10 invite teams but I also know players have expressed they donât like that idea in the past).
I agree! The thing we are trying to do, is have the âgood teamsâ in Main not feel like they are impossible obstacles that canât be overcome.
I think this should be true for the higher level main teams. I donât think this should be true for the teams playing their first season in main out of IM. Main is a big div, and historically and currently has had a very big skill gap. If youâre the bottom team in main, the best team is going to feel like an insurmountable obstacle (though this is true for most divs). But the middle of main and bottom of main isnât going to feel like that.
If high level main teams are feeling like thereâs some teams that are completely unbeatable, (with results to back that up) then I think thatâs a different story and I go back to saying those players probably should have been class restricted.
I know it may not seem like it, since I have a tendency to keep to myself, however I DO in fact read these threads and try to take them into consideration when making changes or setting up the format.
I think this perception, specifically in regards to this topic is due to it being brought up a lot last season, and then you acknowledged it in your post season survey, and then this season we still donât have 8 team advanced. Like itâs just frustrating because often decisions are made without communication to the community regarding the reasoning.
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It took 3 individual threads and mothershipâs direct interference to get staff members to respond to the community. Yes, your DMs are open, but the forums are a place for the entire community to voice their concerns and complaints about decisions as well as give staff the chance to respond to them. As a staff member you are responsible for checking the forums and responding to posts.
Youâre allowed to have a life, youâre allowed to go to school and have a job, but youâre bullshitting yourself if you donât have time to respond to posts that started months ago.
cayorneâs âadvanced is a jokeâ had no staff input at all, and multiple (former) staff members had not even seen the survey results regarding this subject despite the survey being closed for a good length of time. Their first glance at the survey results came from a leaker. This thread was created on September 18th.
BBLâs S10 Analysis: Why Swiss shouldnât be used next season had vibe giving his thoughts but no other staff input. This thread was created on November 7th.
Now finally we have this thread, where we finally have staff input. Special thanks to @Mothership for taking the bull by the horns and going to staff directly to get a response going.
@Wize Youâve done a fantastic job addressing the comments in this thread, and going from radio silence from most of the HL team to a well-made post addressing most comments in the thread is a great way forward. Keep this up.
More to the topic of the thread, I still firmly believe that RR chal and RR adv is totally fine. If the general skill level increases to the point that invite players are put into lower divisions because they canât fit into invite, then lower divved teams have to suck it up that the skill ranges of divisions are shifting.
If ginyu, knd, dk, mts, ad, pyp, irene, >> (the names do not matter, but we assume they are all invite level) all came back, what happens? The skill shifts downwards, as a large amount of teams and players was just added to the top end of competition. Obviously, 8 teams arenât going to drop from the sky, but it applies over time when more and more teams become able to compete at higher levels/older players return as fewer top level players leave the scene.
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Just want to personally thank Wize for all the input in this thread, as well as Willmatic. I am grateful that there is staff feedback on this somewhat contentious topic.
On the topic of low/mid advanced teams taking over main: I think this isnât a bad thing, assuming advanced and invite are healthy especially. A team shouldnât show up into main and expect to have an easy time. The benefit of a swiss system here as well is that throughout a season you will be moved more towards your skill range. So later matches should overall be more even.
I find the sandbagging complaints in main particularly interesting in regards to last season as well. My team won that season and besides like 1 maybe 2 players it was about as much of a âmainâ team as you could get. Yet we pretty much rolled every team we played.
I feel like the we shouldnât have strong teams in main because then the div might be hard just coddles players needlessly. Main shouldnât be a div that you move into and then immediately move out of. Ideally players who just won IM should do okay in main, but they shouldnât be winning their next season. I actually think that if main playoffs have a couple of teams that didnât make advanced/lost advanced quals or w/e thatâs a good thing. I feel that otherwise youâre basically just encouraging teams to only move up because a team above them died or moved up. Like oh all the hard teams are now in the 16 team advanced so now we get to win main!
Ultimately I think that main should be a challenging division to win, and that there should be a sizable gap between low and high main. It will be a struggle for players that are new to the division, but I think that the swiss system will ensure that they are unlikely to be rolled the entire season.
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i might be a bit out of touch at this point given my lack of current familiarity with the atmosphere of main/adv (mostly familiar with how it was from s3-s8 or so, for reference i recall a lot of teams relying on 1-2 players doing punish or be punished playstyles to win in the main and lower end advanced range, leading to a lack of success in matchups in which those conditions couldnât be met), but to me it always felt something like this:
invite is where you really need to coordinate and have all of your players sorta play off of eachother
adv felt like the div where you need to learn to coordinate and a lot of the lower div teams just never really felt or seemed like they had their mental games down, leading to a lot of team deaths midseason over and over again, with people sorta reaching their goal of making advanced and being a âhigh divâ player and being content with it; but then whenever their performance of rolling main on an individual level failed to allow them to win games in advanced, they just sorta collapsed.
main felt like the div where you can just kinda pub it out as long as you have decent mechanical skill and can just chaos
i feel like if you push that bar down a bit you see a much healthier scene where itâs like
main challenges and mentally prepares players to make the transition into adv, with the lower end adv teams who arenât mentally ready or capable of coordinating vs higher end adv teams which dilutes the skill pool of the div a lot being put into a division where they can thrive and grow vs other teams/players of that caliber. weaker main teams have to learn to play together and coordinate to defeat stronger players on paper, who havenât been able to grasp how to really coordinate on a team level, and this gives them a chance to win based off of potential flaws in the âtopâ teams.
tbh i just think it kinda sucks that you can really just look at the player pool and see the same player group be stuck around in a limbo between high main and low advanced forever, feel like something leads to a growth deficit there.adv becomes the div where you really need to be able to coordinate then to be able to really break into it, rather than having people trying to constantly learn it mid season and flopping if not. i think it should kinda just exist as the prerequisite b/c itâs a fundamental thing that you really need to have down if you want to progress to the top, it shouldnât be something you can just skip over and end up hurting your players/team/the health of the league as a whole for.
the easier we make that path for people to just climb, the less growth weâre going to see for the future playerbase as the old guard inevitably shifts out, gotta do our job to make sure that future players are in a good position to mentally grow, which i feel like we often fail at with poor rolemodels.
i just donât feel like main has been that good of an environment to learn the transition from individual strength to mental and team based mechanics/sense, which is very important for a middle of the line division thatâs often overlooked. itâs never been a pure skill based thing but i feel like it tends to get written off as that.
adding challenger was an interesting choice, ultimately though i think it just ended up elongating the issue and segmenting the playerbase into more divs where they are required to grow less to progress. i think having more teams past the main threshhold and a weaker advanced isnât really a solution though. it still doesnât foster that much growth if you put the teams that lack fundamentals of teamplay into their own group, while doing the same thing in the division below them; this just extends the existing issue.
main has to be the barrier, that is the point of a middle of the roads division. making people work for it there with swiss achieves that. Thereâs a lot of individually talented players in the main range, but what does any of that mean if they donât have to come together as a team to beat players that are mechanically stronger than they are? If they end up needing multiple seasons to get that down and stick around that range, that is only a net positive. tbh the types of people that sandbag are really exploitable when it comes to their ego anyways, tends to be a lot easier to tilt and use their sort of crush worse players or whine mentality against them.
point being, thereâs always going to be an advantage you can press if you know the enemy team and your own team, having a harder main helps people to realize this given the openness of the division and how many people they need to learn to play against; also meaning that 1-2 strategies or players arenât enough to win b/c they have to play against so many different playstyles and components, who very well might have the same mentors or be able to do the same things your team does but better; they have to keep innovating and adapting.
if you add challenger back, you keep challenger and advanced as red robin, then you better make sure the teams that can make it up to that range can all do that at a basic level is all Iâm saying. ik i might be coming off harshly but if the growth isnât healthy, it doesnât do the players and teams any favors anyways. you make advanced swiss, and you kinda ensure that people are going to stay around the same levels in main if not advanced as well.
tldr: gap in main good, nice opportunity to fit in a lot of people who need to learn to play together on a higher level and lean off of gimmicks. it is the best opportunity they have to mentally grow as a player. once that gap is crossed itâs crossed in the minds of the players and you canât undo the harm of that. why not shift main around and let things be unstable for a bit so a new and healthier precedent shifts in? the solution lies in main here, all the focus on adv/chal here just makes the issue itself a bit less apparent; or more so then redirects the focus to adv being the issue, while the lack of challenge and growth in main still very much exists.
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I think something additional that is important to point out here with low advanced teams being in main, is that if you as a main player can not do well enough against low advanced teams then you are not going to do well in advanced. Thus, you should not be playing in advanced.
I agree with what bliztank said as well, main is going to be a struggle, and if you donât have the tools to get through that and donât know how to work as a team you are not going to do well in higher divs.
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Apologizes in a delayed response from me. During the weekend, I throw my sleep schedule out the window and relax hardcore. Iâve extremely thankful for you guys willing to express your thoughts on the matter and the kind words.
Read, Understood, and Noted.
#anchor(@Micahlele)
I appreciate you taking the time to express your thoughts. Even after the few months of being apart of staff, Iâm still learning throughout my time on how to make sure Iâm providing you the highest of quality, respect, and support I can personally.
Iâve been brain storming and think maybe itâs time staff reaches out to Invite, Advance, and High Main leaders, to have a round table of some sorts. In the past, weâve depended on you guys coming to us, so I think it might be time we come to you guys (If those stated are willing too of course). This will allow us to hear directly from you guys whether it be 30 mins to an hour. I believe staff should rebuild a connection with team leaders and those that play within the upper half of our divisions.
I was gonna propose this possibly halfway through the season as this would provide us some statistics/analytics for the discussion. Iâm not sure if this would be of any interest? You guys tell me.
#anchor(@Roofon)
I personally love your mentality regarding how Main should function. I think thatâs our end goal here. Main should be a division of development in the sense. Glad you brought up some personal experience. Thatâs critical to hear. Iâve been doing some research regarding how IM playoff caliber teams (Call it the big three if you will aka 1st, 2nd, 3rd place) do in scrims against some Main teams. They currently seem to be doing well against Main teams and thatâs what we need to create within the Main/Advance scenario. (Idk if that made sense as I just woke up).
#anchor(@Bliztank )
Thank you very much for taking the time to create your in-depth post.
I completely agree as well of your mentality regarding what Mainâs purpose is similar to @Roofon
I think we need to bridge the gap a bit of:
Main -> Advance
similar to how
IM -> Main is currently.
I think the HL staff should look at this topic in the sense of fluidity and promoting a growth route. Like Iâve said in previous statements, I believe the reason this topic is an issue even to this day was that it was possible staff was pushing too much change into the communities face and sometimes with too much change, youâre not able to foster/grow.
Iâm extremely appreciative for you were able to break how the differences in divisions and I believe you did an accurate and justice job of explaining the player thought process/decision making within teams/Individuals. We need to make sure Main can be a ground of development and foster that environment which will then assist us with the highest percentile of players and providing them a fair and supportive route to being able to participate within the Invite division.
I hope I was able to provide your responses justice. Letâs work together to create a format thatâll stick while being beneficial to everyone all around.
As always and into the future while Iâm here, I look forward to hearing your responses and I invite more of our veteran players to participate within this discussion too. The more people that are willing to express their thoughts/opinions will influence the leagues decision because again, this is our league. So, letâs push forward creating something great.
-Wize
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@Wize itâs all good, i appreciate you going into something beyond a surface level pr response thatâs done way too late to even be effective at what itâs intended to do. very nice to see a staff member having some personality with what they type and seeing it be somewhat genuine. really, itâs fine for it to be delayed, gives you some time to articulate it; which is important if youâre a staff member. even then though, a few hours is a perfectly fine response time.
youâd do well for this community at the top, keep at it; you give some much needed hope.
i hope thereâs some thoughtful disagreement about what i said, iâm not that involved in the community these days and i donât trust it to be that accurate anymore, had my days in the sun as it were. i just want people thinking about those aspects for it for themselves and forming more insightful conclusions.
tbh though, the issue isnât the attempt to change things, itâs great to see change try to be made, and we have so much lost time to make it for and only so much borrowed time to use. itâs that the change is never focused on the roots of the issues and so it warrants more change to undo that change when it ends up not working out.
point being, change ends up being reactive and so the whole point of trying to make change loses itâs meaning. change should always be proactive, preventing issues rather than misguided attempts to resolve them, you always lose if you put yourself into a position where you chase the trails or apparent showings of an issue. this drives way more into the social side of the scene, where most things tend to be particularly reactive.
from this, we see harmful influences get pushed back for a bit, which then return without any true motivation to change. this leads to issues stacking up while never being resolved. negative energy is met with more negative energy and nothing ends up changing besides a surface level perception.to loop back around, itâs not that people donât try, they certainly do and thatâs always nice to see. but it tends to be mostly isolated, reactive change never really unifies people and all it takes is 1-2 negative influences to set all of that change back or cause it to be negative change when it only comes from a few sources. this is what we end up running into with these sorts of decisions on an administrative level. change gets pushed for the people, not with them. the level of change is never the problem, itâs the significance of it. the significance is what gives people something to rally and get behind, the aspect of hope and seeing it result in genuine change.
but ig dividing people with change that ends up solving nothing, and then dividing them again when you go back on it is also valid
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@Bliztank
For sure. During this season, my personal goal will be to motivate fellow members in our staff to talk to our players a bit more. I definitely think thereâs a benefit to running polls and we should 100% continue to do so because it shows that the people who interacted and were willing to donate some of their time to help gather info but like I said, we need to engage more if we want better/more accurate information and that requires effort from the staff.
Iâm not sure If I can completely persuade to change the mentality of staff but I certainly will try. We recent added some great new members who have the potential to create some phenomenal impact once they get up to par and have a season under their belt.
Thanks once again for expressing yourself. It shows that you care for the future of the league and thatâs what we need to work on having everyone looking towards.
Iâll be closely monitoring this thread but I always welcome you guys to contact me if youâd like to talk about anything else related to Advance or possible changes you think are beneficial. If we have a few more people that want some clarification of placements for our division, Iâd be happy to do so (but itâd probably be a wall of text).
-Wize