Unban The Scorch Shot
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Preface: I know this will be unpopular, however, I invite you to please try to take a look at the arguments presented, as I do believe this would genuinely improve the condition of pyro in the game as it is played in HL. Apologies to mods if this is the wrong page, I created this post where the ban the scorch thread was.
The Scorch Shot was banned 2 years ago due to what seems to be a few reasons:
- It’s annoying/easy
- It was degenerating the meta as it was seen as the only non-throw option
- Lower-tier pyros could not really develop their skills and would be doomed to a life of Scorch Botting.
None of these reasons are valid as of now:
- The Natascha or Dead Ringer(or spy or pyro as a whole) isn’t banned, and there certainly are easier to use weapons or abilities. This was pointed out in the original discussions: A weapon or class or ability being annoying or easy to use is not a ban justification
- With time, numerous analyses and playtime on other weapons, it has become clear that the scorch shot was never actually good enough to make the det/shotgun/flares obsolete
- Since there are distinct use case advantages to the other weapons and the det is a better dps spam flare, and these are known, pyros would be inclined to improve their gameplay by running different secondaries most of the time even if the scorch were allowed.
Non-updated or old games have notoriously slow-moving metas where even an OP strategy may be ignored for years(SG553 on CSGO, notably). The Scorch was never OP and its negative effects on Pyro mains and the meta were only created by this inability and unwillingness to try the other, generally stronger or at least just as good secondaries. This has now passed due to the time the community spent playing without it.
I know points 2 and 3 will be controversial, but please refer to this video for a summary of exactly why the detonator is a better spam flare than the scorch, on top of its very notable movement benefit: https://youtu.be/HonJ1mxp8lE
The ban reasons no longer being valid does not mean a valid argument to unban the weapon though, so I will be making those here:
- Unique abilities and role:
While it does not out-spam or out-move the Detonator, it provides the ability to push people around, this notably allows for cancelling bombs with airshots, direct hits also deny(or at least deter) space for a short while. These are useful, but do not make it dominant over its flare brethrens better damage and mobility or straight up raw kill potential. - Improved weapon diversity:
As a secondary, the Scorch is distinct enough from its brethren(due to the above listed uniqueness) that it would freshen the class without taking over, but also due to its synchronicity with the Dragon’s Fury, it could make the DF a viable(ish) primary. It probably would never take over the meta, but I’m sure we all agree that a potnetially whole new(arguably more skillfull) way to play the Pyro without being told you’re trolling is cool. - Pyro as a whole will not change:
This is for the non-Pyros in this post. Pyro will not be played significantly differently, Pyro will not be a quarter as strong as pre-degreaser and airblast nerfs. You’ll get pushed around more often, but actually take less fire spam damage. Pyro will remain the relatively weak combat class relegated to support roles that he already is.
Before I conclude, I must point out that the discussions and calls for a Scorch Shot ban started only after a massive bandwagon started by TF2 youtubers who had hilariously flawed arguments and testing procedures(ie assuming the scorch shot always hits twice or comparing it to the flare gun by running games using only the flare then only the scorch) to justify their pre-assumed conclusion that the gun was overpowered. I’m not saying that some arguments to ban it weren’t valid at the time, but I doubt the movement would have had such wind in its sails without those videos.
In conclusion the Scorch Shot isn’t, and wasn’t ever, OP. It had a negative effect on Pyro mains’ development and Pyro’s weapon diversity due to metas getting stale, but now that it’s known to not be a direct upgrade to anything, this effect would not repeat if unbanned. It also won’t make life too different or worse for non-Pyros but improve Pyro mains’ lives by way of additional ability(I just want to shoot down bombs goddamnit) and weapon diversity, both in the added secondary and chance to maybe make the Dragon’s Fury work.
If a vote was taken today, it would still turn out against the Scorch Shot, not because of an actually valid reason, but because it is somewhat easy to use and annoying, and falsely perceived to make the class stronger, it’s harder to dispute mistruths than to put them out there. The valid reasons for the ban are no longer present, and the little bit of extra annoyance it’d create(and mostly in lower divs I wager) would be worth the increased depth and freshness for Pyro players to engage in. People are used to playing without it and think of it as basically the devil, but I think it deserves another (scorching) shot.
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no thanks lol
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scorch shot is a crutch for bad pyro players and takes significantly less skill to use than detonator, on top of that it fucking stunlocks players (scouts in particular) and can hit twice. finally, you didnt even mention the darwins which got banned alongside this weapon. so no this weapon will not be getting unbanned any time soon and its for the best
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bro
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Assuming this post is not a joke:
A seemingly new player telling old players that they hated an overpowered weapon because of a ban wagon started by a YouTube video most of us probably didn’t watch… nice!
The scorch shot was and still is a direct upgrade to the detonator and that has not changed simply because people have been forced to use the detonator (and as it stands if not used it is considered throwing in most situations just as the scorch shot was before).
In closing - also ban the detonator!
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nobody watched the youtube bandwagon thing or whatever we all played the game and saw how aids it was getting randomly stunlocked and 1 shot by a flare across the map
i get where youre coming from but in the hands of the best pyro players on the planet it is very much overpowered
det spam is also annoying but its much more manageable than getting one shot off china by a flare
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RapidKebab It is banned for a valid reason, and people would vote against it today for a valid reason. It’s not fun to use, and it’s not fun to play against (and I say this as a pyro main). That’s it. If the game isn’t fun, people don’t want to play.
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As an invite pyro, I do agree the Scorch Shot isn’t and wasn’t ever OP. It had a negative effect on Pyro mains’ development and Pyro’s weapon diversity due to metas getting stale, but now that it’s known to not be a direct upgrade to anything, this effect would not repeat if unbanned. It also won’t make life too different or worse for non-Pyros but improve Pyro mains’ lives by way of additional ability(I just want to shoot down bombs goddamnit) and weapon diversity.
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minty not really, did you even play pyro in comp and used the scorch shot to know that?
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TheS4rr scorch shot is not really overpowered at all, I still believe the Scorch Shot isn’t, and wasn’t ever OP. It had a negative effect on Pyro mains’ development and Pyro’s weapon diversity due to metas getting stale, but now that it’s known to not be a direct upgrade to anything, this effect would not repeat if unbanned. It also won’t make life too different or worse for non-Pyros but improve Pyro mains’ lives by way of additional ability
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cayorne det can hit multiple targets while scorch shot can only hit one, so techinically the scorch shot isn’t really an upgrade, I still believe det is more overpowered than the scorch shot and we should just ban det instead
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yes unban the scorch shot
but no, one of the biggest reasons it was banned was due to the stun/knockback and contributing crit damage. Degenerating the meta isn’t exactly an argument considering most teams make their pyros run perma det nowadays anyway. Lets be real that people just hated playing against it
https://forums.rgl.gg/topic/685/forked-scorch-shot-ban-discussion?_=1670997453425
read up on the original ban thread if you’d like to read the discussion
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Xenagos as a true pyro main, I think your comment is just false, good sir! it is the most fun weapon for pyro and currently, pyros are weak in competitive and deserve a decent buff. People just over-exaggerated on how OP scorch shot was and it should be given a chance to see whether or not its really overpowered now.
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Xenagos said in Unban The Scorch Shot:
RapidKebab It is banned for a valid reason, and people would vote against it today for a valid reason. It’s not fun to use, and it’s not fun to play against (and I say this as a pyro main). That’s it. If the game isn’t fun, people don’t want to play.
Fair, obviously the goal is to keep the playerbase happy, but really the scorch’s annoyance to non-pyros does not(imo) outbalance the extra doors it’d open to pyros, and for all I’m concerned it’s very fun to use. Even in the original ban thread it was established by many that annoying != ban reason. You could make the same arguments against the Natascha or the entire pyro/sniper/spy classes.
minty said in Unban The Scorch Shot:
scorch shot is a crutch for bad pyro players and takes significantly less skill to use than detonator, on top of that it fucking stunlocks players (scouts in particular) and can hit twice. finally, you didnt even mention the darwins which got banned alongside this weapon. so no this weapon will not be getting unbanned any time soon and its for the best
You’re severely overstimating the amount of skill the Det takes, it’s trivial to figure the timing. Further, you only get double hit if you are a heavy, cornered, or walk directly into the flare that hit you.
TheS4rr said in Unban The Scorch Shot:
Assuming this post is not a joke:
A seemingly new player telling old players that they hated an overpowered weapon because of a ban wagon started by a YouTube video most of us probably didn’t watch… nice!
The scorch shot was and still is a direct upgrade to the detonator and that has not changed simply because people have been forced to use the detonator (and as it stands if not used it is considered throwing in most situations just as the scorch shot was before).
In closing - also ban the detonator!
Assuming this post is not a joke, I clearly specified there was valid reason and it wasn’t banned because of the videos, just that there was a vote on it and a lot of people probably were affected by that.(apologies if I was unclear on that)
The Det can do significantly more dpm(in match conditions) than the Scorch and is not significantly harder to use. This does not mean it should be banned(or that the flare or shotguns are useless), but that’s irrelevant to discussion at hand.
cayorne said in Unban The Scorch Shot:
nobody watched the youtube bandwagon thing or whatever we all played the game and saw how aids it was getting randomly stunlocked and 1 shot by a flare across the map
i get where youre coming from but in the hands of the best pyro players on the planet it is very much overpowered
det spam is also annoying but its much more manageable than getting one shot off china by a flare
I mean, I don’t know why anyone was getting one shot off china with the Danger Shield on and admit to not playing community comp back then. It feels like its reduced movement ability and imo worse damage potential might mean(and has me convinced) it actually isn’t OP. It’d be worthy of experimentation.
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Melon Yeah, I’ve read this, I was basing myself off of a lot of Bliztank’s arguments at the time, as I disagree with the “pyro’s weak so give them a relatively op weapon” take, and wanted to thoroughly talk about arguments that weren’t just “this is annoying”. Glad we agree on conclusion regardless
Though at least on the lower divs unless a map has a useful det jump ie Ashville, I’ve run and had my teammates be fine with me running the flare (or even manmelter if the enemy pyro was spammy). Other pyros seem to run the shotguns when no det. Either way it’s fun and I feel I do better on product running the flare over det.
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RapidKebab said in Unban The Scorch Shot:
Fair, obviously the goal is to keep the playerbase happy, but really the scorch’s annoyance to non-pyros does not(imo) outbalance the extra doors it’d open to pyros,
I’m curious as to what other doors you think it opens for pyros that aren’t available with other weapons.
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Xenagos said in Unban The Scorch Shot:
RapidKebab said in Unban The Scorch Shot:
Fair, obviously the goal is to keep the playerbase happy, but really the scorch’s annoyance to non-pyros does not(imo) outbalance the extra doors it’d open to pyros,
I’m curious as to what other doors you think it opens for pyros that aren’t available with other weapons.
As per original post, most of all the ability to airshot someone and shutdown a bomb. Along with the knockback and temporary area denial’s many smaller uses in pushing people out of position without having to get in airblast range.
Also per original post, I know it’s a stretch, but the Scorch also makes the Dragon’s Fury a ton more usable and powerful. Most pyros and teams probably would never be okay with the worse airblast, but it’d be less of a throw and maybe warrant experimentation for the extra burst and range.
Finally, it’d also allow newer players to adopt comp easier, as most pyros will run either puff and sting or scorch. This is no new door, but it’s still valuable in growing the league.
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As a former pyro player, I agree with the opinion that pyro should be given more avenues to contribute. Pyro has always been the weakest class in Highlander and it has been perpetuated due to people deeming the class “annoying” or “stupid to play against.” I played a couple of matches as pyro this season in this new meta and I feel like the detonator is much more versatile than people give it credit for. The thing can destroy traps that you can’t even see.
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Ban the det or unban the scorch. Both are the same niche. Plus take the Cozy camper with it.
Det has better dmg
Det has better mobility
Det has a better ability to destroy trapsScorch is better at area denial
Both have the same splash area
It’s true that scorch is easier to use but you’ll be doing yourself a great disservice if you are serious about pyro. Since the flare gun and shotgun can be even better with better dm and contribute to your team even more in situations. Currently the det and the scorch are both god awful at actually killing stuff that are out of range of you.
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JohhnyFromCali said in Unban The Scorch Shot:
Ban the det or unban the scorch. Both are the same niche. Plus take the Cozy camper with it.
Now this is what we should be talking about. Why does the best class in the format get an unlock that just negates a balance mechanic.