Addressing Racism/Anti-LGBTQ Speech on Off-Platform Media

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  • @rairai okay if someone is “being bigoted” consistently outside of the RGL platforms, wouldnt that count as harassment? and we have rules against that already right?

    if you dont think that having overarching rules from a third party in every single un-official rgl discord wouldnt be akin to treating their players like babies then idk what to say fam. if someone is harassing you, report them. if someone is being unnormally racist or bigoted or whatever, ask them to stop. if they dont, block them. theres no reason to bring RGL administration into private servers when it is totally unneeded.

  • @rairai said in Addressing Racism/Anti-LGBTQ Speech on Off-Platform Media:

    @vryktion said in Addressing Racism/Anti-LGBTQ Speech on Off-Platform Media:

    @Ampy said in Addressing Racism/Anti-LGBTQ Speech on Off-Platform Media:

    Firstly, allowing players who are actively known by players in the community to use hate speech is incredibly damaging to the image of RGL. RGL understands this and institutes their current rules (as given above). However, their stance on not “policing” the private discords or other media options players use still indirectly harms RGL’s image.

    honestly im gonna sound dumb as shit here (4 hours of sleep lowe me) but how does a player’s actions damage the image of the league? im not arguing with u i just want to educate myself here.

    Acknowledging that someone is bigoted but being unwilling to take a stance since it didn’t occur in RGL-regulated services is a form of complicity.

    makes sense, thanks !

  • @shia-wno said in Addressing Racism/Anti-LGBTQ Speech on Off-Platform Media:

    if you dont think that having overarching rules from a third party in every single un-official rgl discord wouldnt be akin to treating their players like babies then idk what to say fam.

    Is holding ppl accountable really treating them “like babies”? How is this any different from your workplace or school or social relationships taking a stance on the things that you say?

  • also, if the one and done permaban with slurs gets implemented, how many people would get banned going through chat logs? when does the permaban rule start? from today on? from the start of the league?

  • @rairai the difference is that this is a fucking gaming league and not real life. if someone is harassing you, report them. and if someone isnt harassing you, ask them to stop. its whatever to get mad at them but theres no reason to permaban people who arent harassing others

  • @shia-wno New players will fill in the gap.

    In fact, I do ignore most of the hate speech, and it doesn’t even affect me personally. That doesn’t mean we should be lax on the issue. Keeping players who use hatespeech because they are “good” is horrible reasoning. The players are actively harassing an entire race by saying the n-word, and I guarantee that there are players in RGL that are African American.

    @Sr-Cabron

    First, I don’t see at all why it’s ridiculous to punish a player for actively using hatespeech against an entire race/gender/sexuality. I also have specifically never stated that RGL should have staff in every team discord/group chat, only stated that they should accept player reports that come from such discords and punish accordingly.

    @megga

    Your post didn’t counter any argument I’ve brought up so far.

    There is no breach of privacy here. My given solutions have amounted to: “RGL, I do not want to play in a league with x user of hatespeech. Here is my proof that this has occurred.” You will lose players for hatespeech if you don’t adequately deal with the issue. You are free to say whatever you want in your discord/twitter/texts, but just like in real life, if it gets seen in public, you can quite possibly get bad backlash. Companies may fire you, friends/family may disown you, or other punishments.

  • @shia-wno

    Ideally, retroactively up to some indeterminate time would probably be best. I’d say any usage of hatespeech a year back would suffice

  • @Ampy i guarantee most of the black people in this community arent personally offended by people saying the funny word. And I guarantee if any of them asked the people saying it to stop because they are personally offended by the word, they would stop.

  • Just because people are complicit, does not mean people outside of the community coming in will be. Even if someone is not offended by hate speech, it does not change the fact that it is hatespeech.

    In addition, please try and construct longer messages into singular posts, so we aren’t just spamming a couple sentences back and forth x.x

  • @rairai said in Addressing Racism/Anti-LGBTQ Speech on Off-Platform Media:

    Acknowledging that someone is bigoted but being unwilling to take a stance since it didn’t occur in RGL-regulated services is a form of complicity.

    firstly: opinions expressed here are those of darzie, unrelated to a view RGL dot gg

    I don’t think RGL policing private discords and other private services in cases of toxicity is necessarily realistic. RGL has it’s own spaces it moderates, but other spaces would rely on reports from others, and without access to those spaces RGL can’t verify what’s going in those discords either.

    What’s happening in private platforms can be not great but also where are the resources going to come from verifying the integrity of reports submitted about third party services.

    Some places like twitch do have their own standards, and you can report people to twitch for breaking those standards (similar to how you can report scammers to discord) and I think part of is how platforms handle those people, it’s not just RGL’s job to curb the toxicity that exists in the community.

  • All this will do will make people say replacement words everywhere. Everyone knows what “mega” truly means but will RGL ban people for using it? How about the next replacement word following it? HLPugs tried banning the replacement words until people just started typing “n” and the site died as a result

    note:
    I think using bigoted speech as a punchline to a joke is cringe and unfunny

  • @shia-wno said in Addressing Racism/Anti-LGBTQ Speech on Off-Platform Media:

    @/Ampy i guarantee most of the black people in this community arent personally offended by people saying the funny word. And I guarantee if any of them asked the people saying it to stop because they are personally offended by the word, they would stop.

    People who care that their speech is hurting others will stop. Or people who are close to the person asking will stop.

    Lots of people will continue using slurs, and if you disclose a specific slur hurts they will go out of their way to use it at you, until you decide to block them because they’re slur hurling bastards.

    This problem isn’t as simple as “just ask people to stop” because they genuinely won’t.

  • @wish said in Addressing Racism/Anti-LGBTQ Speech on Off-Platform Media:

    All this will do will make people say replacement words everywhere. Everyone knows what “mega” truly means but will RGL ban people for using it? How about the next replacement word following it? HLPugs tried banning the replacement words until people just started typing “n” and the site died as a result

    note:
    I think using bigoted speech as a punchline to a joke is cringe and unfunny

    im kinda in the same boat, i think it has to come down to people to police their friends and let them know its not cool. people in teams ive been on have been yelled at for slurs plenty of times.
    i think the fact that RGL gives people as many chances as humanly possible is a net positive for the community, as people CAN change, if we just perma people for stupid shit they say in private discords that feels like way too much overreach

  • @Ampy The amount of teenage edgelord boys that would be banned because of this would decrease the tf2 comp population by 60-70%. If they can’t say a slur for more than 5 minutes they will explode.

  • @darzie said in Addressing Racism/Anti-LGBTQ Speech on Off-Platform Media:

    This problem isn’t as simple as “just ask people to stop” because they genuinely won’t.

    It’s quite easy, you literally give them an ultimatum: “I won’t play on your team if you keep on using slurs”. Most people who use slurs in TF2 aren’t actual racists, they’re just being edgy, so they will stop 100%.

  • the problem is that when people sign up to play competitive tf2, they arent signing up to be spied on. you would arguably drive away more players by having people be constantly monitored by league admins than by just letting the small subset of toxic players be toxic. you also empower said toxic people by making them feel victimized, as a result only making the problem worse because people will see overreach and become sympathetic to those players. also some people just think shit like that is funny, you may disagree, and you have perfectly good reason to do so, its just how some people are.

    you then run into the problem of people taking screenshots and sending them to admins out of context, and this turning into a weapon to take out players you dont like.

    got a match against a team with a crazy sniper next week? well lucky for you, he just made a joke in extremely poor taste in a discord with him and 2 close friends that you happened to be lurking in, now you have a free win!

    it would be too much to deal with for an admin team that is already volunteer to begin with, so then there is more time spent dealing with trying to figure out if a discord screenshot is edited or fake than time trying to find what player is cheating or trying to help a new team leader figure out what the fuck they’re doing.

    its a waste of effort and resources to police this kind of thing, its not like these people are playing for a brand for the most part, the reason big players in other eSports are harshly criticized is because there is a lot of money behind them, that is very much not the case with tf2.

    tl;dr policing private shit makes toxic people more sympathetic to some people, spreads toxicity, too much shit for admin team to deal with

  • @wish said in Addressing Racism/Anti-LGBTQ Speech on Off-Platform Media:

    @darzie said in Addressing Racism/Anti-LGBTQ Speech on Off-Platform Media:

    This problem isn’t as simple as “just ask people to stop” because they genuinely won’t.

    It’s quite easy, you literally give them an ultimatum: “I won’t play on your team if you keep on using slurs”. Most people who use slurs in TF2 aren’t actual racists, they’re just being edgy, so they will stop 100%.

    You did not read my full post. If people are that invested in having you on their team that will probably work. However half the time people will tell they don’t actually care about having you in their team/pug group/whatever niche tf2 thing and continue doing whatever it is.

    Sometimes asking will work. Sometimes it will not. Pretending asking will always work is a falsehood and doesn’t reflect the reality of what’s going on.

  • Policing private discords just is not worth the effort it would demand from admins who have their own lives and own issues.

    However, outside of private discords, on public platforms such as twitter. You really shouldn’t be upset if you get banned in RGL for spouting hate speech, racism, etc… Its almost like actions have consequences.

  • This is a really bad post.

  • @Ampy said in Addressing Racism/Anti-LGBTQ Speech on Off-Platform Media:

    However, the higher in the league you go, the more prevalent this issue has become and as such makes it infinitely harder to be apart of a team without such players.

    And then it becomes contradictory ends to assemble a team that is good and a team that doesn’t say racial slurs

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