Addressing Racism/Anti-LGBTQ Speech on Off-Platform Media
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No it’s just a funny song.
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This has kind of been said already, but RGL is a gaming league. That means its goal (in theory at least) is to make it as easy and as enjoyable for people to PLAY TF2 as possible. RGL is NOT a charity, or a group of social activists, or anything like that. It makes sense for hate speech, spam, etc. to be banned in RGL related servers because it could directly hinder RGL’s ability to provide its services. What happens in private servers however, has little to no effect on whether or not people can use RGL to PLAY TF2. Simply put, it just isn’t RGL’s job to police these things. Why does a gaming league have to take stances on political bullshit? The role of a gaming league in a community should be letting people play the game, regardless of whether or not the owners of said league dislike them.
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@Ampy Once again, I say this; GROW THICKER SKIN. I have had much worse than slurs said to my face, and you know what I did? I grew thicker skin, I ignored them, I stopped associating with those people. If someone on an enemy team likes saying gamer words in their own time and you somehow find out, you can just block them. Its that simple. Then you never hear from them again!
Do you think that mom and pop example you gave is right? Do you think its moral for them to do that? We are not debating the legality of RGL potentially doing this, we are debating the morality.
Restricting players in pug groups from saying gamer words is just stupid. People have a right to say whatever they want in their own private groups, and restricting them is just wrong morally.
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@Kastaling why are you trying to make an argument based in morality? Like ignoring morals being completely subjective, do you think people using slurs is moral?
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if you dont like the way rgl is doing shit just go to UGC. Or make your own league.
its still quite moneky to punish someone outside of anything affiliated with the rgl league
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@Xenagos depends on the context, but it’s sure as hell more moral than policing people’s private lives and infringing on their free speech
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@Kastaling free speech is against government overreach not a private jaming league
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@Kastaling this just in, saying slurs is moral. Telling people they can’t play in video game league if they slurs is not moral.
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@nujito legally? Sure that’s how the current interpretations of free speech are by the SCOTUS in the US. But morally? completely different story and principle.
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@Xenagos im glad you finally understand, even with the strawman
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@Kastaling there’s like actual good reasons why this would be a bad policy, but y’all are intent on using the worst possible arguments for some reason, which is wild.
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@Xenagos we’ve used all arguments against this, including ones that you think are “bad” because someone has thin skin.
This rule would be a breach of privacy, an overreach by RGL, and would just be a turn off for any new players looking to play in the league
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@Kastaling morality is subjective and is a bad anecdote to use. rgl has a image to uphold and if people think its just a bunch of jamers yelling out the N word here and there. it makes them look bad.
now its a bit much in the “ethical” and workload department to have rgl police peoples private discord so it more than likely wont happen.
just dont say it during scrims or on the forums
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these arguments are always such a pain in the ass tbh because the inherent moral high ground in “stop saying slurs” automatically makes anyone arguing against it look like a mouthbreather
The root problem, as I see it, comes from the fact that many tf2 players conflate their “RGL experience” (which is a professional/public setting and should be held to a certain standard of conduct) with their own private social lives (private setting held to a lower standard). it’s RGL’s job to ensure that all experiences necessary to reasonably partake in their league are held to that aforementioned “certain standard of conduct.” Currently, these “experiences” are defined as pretty much everything RGL-sponsored (including but not limited to RGL pugs, forums, matches, and discord servers), as well as “optional” scrims.
I think the move to punish players for offenses in scrims is a very good move, because realistically scrims are necessary for meaningful participation in RGL and thus should be held under the same rules as everything else. It’s worth noting that including scrims as an essential part of the RGL experience differs vastly from other leagues and was met with understandable backlash, but again, I personally think it’s for the better.
However, privately-run PUG groups are not essential to the RGL experience. I think RGL’s reluctance to definitively rule private pug groups as “not in our jurisdiction” makes this problem a lot worse than it could be, but that’s an off topic gripe. Private PUG groups, from RGL’s perspective, exist for social purposes first and game-related purposes second. No arguments. Regardless of the stated aims of the creators or players of these groups, they are secondary to the things already under the “RGL Umbrella”, as it were. You are willingly choosing to enter these private spaces on your own, and demanding those inside be held accountable feels like a vast, vast overreach of what a TF2 league should be doing.
If an individual is concerned about experiencing slurs/hate/etc, all experiences deemed essential and necessary to participate in RGL are (reasonably) safe spaces. Anyone can safely experience RGL, or at least have the knowledge anyone violating that safety will be punished.
If I solo Q a game of CSGO or LoL and my teammates invite me to their discord afterwards for some inhouse games and they immediately start shrieking the n-word, is it reasonable for me to expect Valve/Riot to ban them for those actions? I think you’d be hard-pressed to find anyone who’d legitimately think it’d be a wise use of resources or judgment. Why is this? Because the size of those companies and those games make the distance between end-user and producer/admin clear. Regardless of your personal feelings on those actions, crying to Riot/Valve would be stupid at worst and nobly futile at best.
So why do we expect RGL to do the opposite? I honestly think it’s just an issue of size and the peculiarity of the tf2 community in regards to how much more tight-knit and “full-time” it is compared to other games. The playerbase is small enough that you can make meaningful friendships and form strong communities that are meaningful in the large-scale of the scene’s fabric. I think that’s wonderful, but I also think it’s not RGL’s responsibility. Are there meaningful differences between Riot and RGL? Of course. But as “providers of an entertainment service”, I think the standard applied to both should be the same.
I’m trying to read into the motivations of this post, @Ampy, and here’s what I’m getting:
-You aren’t doing this solely out of selfless concern for the league
-You couldn’t have thought this would get you clout considering the make up of the community
-You’re clearly passionate about this issue
So my guess is that you (or someone you care about) was hurt by certain malicious things said by others. I think that’s honorable and this conversation is a good one to have. So I apologize for coming off a little crass, but,Why should RGL have (or even want) to watchdog your optional, private, social interactions?
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@Kastaling said in Addressing Racism/Anti-LGBTQ Speech on Off-Platform Media:
Once again, I say this; GROW THICKER SKIN.
Unfortunately, this always tends to be a bit of a strawman and really doesn’t work in context. That’s mainly because growing thicker skin is not an option for some people.
Although some of you may not believe it based on my earlier posts, I am not easily offended. When someone uses one of the “big three” slurs or others, I can easily laugh it off. I can even use the one that applies to me in certain people’s company. Because of this, I have the privileged position of being able to simply ignore, or make a reasoned/civil argument, when someone expresses opinions that directly derogate someone’s identity. Even though one of the “big three” slurs applies to me, I really don’t care or get offended, on a personal level, when someone uses that slur. But not everyone has this position.
I’ve come to know several people who, because of who they are, have been disowned, kicked out of their houses, lost any hope at inheritance they had, ostracized by their school communities, passed up for jobs because of what bathroom they came out of, or at worst, even attacked because of who they are.
Some of these people used to be in RGL. There may be some like them still in RGL.
I ask you: Is it fair to place the burden of growing thicker skin on them, who have already had to deal with countless burdens in their lives? Is it fair to say that they, who have this constant reminder in the form of a word of the hardships they have suffered, are the ones at wrong because they are offended by a word whose existence so many people take lightly?
This is not about a minority imposing its will on the majority, either. I think you will find that most people in or outside the league, whether or not they support OP, are opposed to the use of racial slurs because in whatever context they are used, they demean people.
So the fact that this discussion is about “growing thicker skin” shows how prevalent this rot, if you will, is within the TF2 community. The burden should rightfully be on those who use slurs to not use slurs, an action which can directly cause harm. Any less is an attitude that tells everyone that you (not you, Kastaling, just the audience of this post in general) are more important than the people who would be harmed. And so this discussion should not be about thick skin or thin skin at all, or if it is right or wrong to say slurs. It should be about whether it is feasible or not for RGL to act off of reports gathered on such platforms, and what should be the extent of this.
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I’m gonna change my position after a bit of thinking. I can see why, in terms of enforcement, private team chats would be a bit of a pain, in terms of faked reports, infeasibility of investigating, etc. Therefore I now believe that RGL should only deal with instances of targeted harassment in multiple areas of one person outside league chats, and it should respond to reports only for public places or RGL spaces - say, twitch streams that anyone can access, or public forums (TFTV, ETF2L, what have you) or public chats.