KOTH Cascade
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- too many sniper sightlines which make it hell pretty much in high divs
- not a lot of ammo
- for some reason seems way smaller than the old cascade (which is a downside)
- same issue as the old cascade, not much cover
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Map is fine. It does and feel like the same old Cascade with some okay additions and removals.
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@toast said in KOTH Cascade:
too many sniper sightlines which make it hell pretty much in high divs
you’re definitely right on this one, i feel like a lot of the stuff i was able to peek was only because my enemy snipers just weren’t good bc of the div my team got placed into for the 7s cup. I don’t think closing these sightlines off at the source - like the walls added to batts - is a good idea beyond the point it’s already been done, because otherwise sniper would be limited to irrelevance. Instead, I think cover on point should be expanded to provide for this - which also addresses another of toast’s points.
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I don’t think it being smaller than old cascade is a downside. Its geometry feels a lot more like product’s, which is a good thing, while preserving the map’s uniqueness. You don’t have to walk such a long distance, where you can get spammed out by forward holds, to take space on point, and actually edging the cap is feasible, as opposed to full-committing like old cascade somewhat forced you to do. This ends up making it so that if you’re getting beat, you’re not necessarily getting rolled.
My biggest complaint with the map right now is that the noise in the house/choke/batts area is enough to make it very easy for you to lose track of someone who gets behind, making it very easy for a soldier or det/jetpack pyro to take advantage of the map’s high skybox, or other classes to just walk behind when point isn’t capped, and do tons of work behind lines while it’s hard to counter them, especially at a height disad on point.
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i def agree that there wasnt enough ammo, felt like i was running out of ammo way too much
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these rocks look like something you should be able to walk up smoothly but bc of the clipping of the wall you can’tI’ll wait until getting a chance to play it more before sharing in-depth thoughts, however I can tell right away that I’ll be sad about the changes to batts. I enjoyed taking fights around that part of the map but now its mostly smaller interiors which don’t exactly have the most thrilling fights.
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this is pain
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@BMPD how is that much different from the existing fence spot on current cascade that already is a bit meh
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From just judging based on the pictures. The sniper is hidden vs being fully exposed in the old version.
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This shit too low, make it taller.
Also ammo packs on point
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I’ve released an update for Cascade in preparation for its inclusion in the RGL Experimental Highlander Cup. This update introduces several layout changes and quality of life improvements made in response to player feedback, in addition to a lighting overhaul and other visual changes.
Changelog:
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Continued art-pass
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Changed environment lighting and skybox
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Increased height of hill on mid to provide cover from snipers on batts
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Extended cliffs on mid to limit sightlines from the point to concrete
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Changed geometry of concrete to compensate for extension of cliff
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Moved medium health and ammo on concrete behind the wall to be accessible without exposure to sightlines from mid
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Changed catwalk at cave entrance to wrap around the cliff to provide an additional option for pushing snipers on mid
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Removed rock by left side fence on mid to make it more difficult for defenders to flank using new catwalk
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Added a doorway under left side bridge to limit sightlines from mid
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Changed layout of house basement to be more open and eliminate sightlines from batts
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Widened doorways in left side building to make it easier to locate flanking players
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Replaced ramps up to house with a staircase
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Added snow piles to improve ease of movement around rocks on mid (the snow texture has been modified to not produce particles that impact performance)
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Added two small ammo packs on mid
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Removed small ammo in house basement
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Increased point capture time from 8 seconds to 10
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Increased defender respawn wave time from 9 to 10
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Decreased attacker respawn wave time from 3 to 2
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Various clipping and bullet/projectile collision improvements
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Performance improvements
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Screenshots:
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@Defcon
It’s so pretty!! wow !The only two things I’ve noticed are that it seems when I go lower the rushing water sound keeps playing no matter where I go (and even on respawn) and it’s quite loud. And there’s a truck with broken lighting or textures by spawn (but that’s really nbd)
Good work
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@fleeble said in KOTH Cascade:
@Defcon
It’s so pretty!! wow !The only two things I’ve noticed are that it seems when I go lower the rushing water sound keeps playing no matter where I go (and even on respawn) and it’s quite loud. And there’s a truck with broken lighting or textures by spawn (but that’s really nbd)
Good work
actually, it seems that the sound glitch doesn’t happen on the server where we just loaded up the map so not sure what that was about!
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znXYdx28fQo
rip flying heavy 2021-2021 -
if a single one of u mouthbreathers complains about ‘sniper op’ tomorrow i will personally wage righteous jihad against your bloodline until the end of time, the work defcon put in to making sniper manageable on this latest version is herculean
some things you should keep in mind instead:
- does the raised point help (by limiting sightlines) or hurt (by giving defenders potential height advantage) the gameplay flow of the map?
subpoint: what’s the strength vs. difficulty for holding on the point vs. holding behind it? traditional HL logic suggests that holding on the point is stronger but more difficult to pull off. how does that dynamic play here? - related: does the increased tunnel height (as a result of the point increase) make forcing a defensive soldier out of your own tunnel unreasonably difficult due to having height disad?
- do the geometry changes to concrete that make backing out more difficult have any major repercussions on kiting ubers?
- how do the new catwalks (on left outside of tunnel) affect gameplay? is it viable option for a fast combo push?
- i can’t believe i’m typing this, but after running around on the map and ringing in a scrim on it the idea ran through my head: do the nerfed sightlines + raised height of mid make it too difficult to push point? have we finally reached the point where we need to buff a map’s sightlines?
- how does the redesigned first floor feel? does it give attackers viable options to reach point and rotate safely?
- does the raised point help (by limiting sightlines) or hurt (by giving defenders potential height advantage) the gameplay flow of the map?
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I think v2 has a lot of promise. Sniper’s more fun to play against (calling sniper right / left bats is really annoying but I guess it can be solved with more refined callouts) because there’s less spots for him to be.
During the map cup we decided that playing on point was the best hold .
Now my criticisms:
The area between the point and house is way too tiny.Fighting a soldier who decided jump into your tunnel isn’t fun. The only way to deal with him isn’t fun is by spamming rockets or stickies until he dies. You can’t walk at him as scout or engineer because he has height advantage in a tunnel.
Original cascade you could push from concrete and the other side of the map depending on where the other team’s sniper was sitting. In the new cascade, I think the only valid spot to push from is concrete mostly due to how the one of the only sightlines is bats.
https://demos.tf/639528
https://demos.tf/639549^ Our match demos
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@wish i def think the area between point and house could be elongated and the slope less steep, but not as long as original cascade, that was too much. would also help with the high ground in caves
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also agree with alto that contesting players in caves is too difficult bc high ground on caves. im not sure actually moving caves up was super needed?
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The degree of steepness in the current version did feel to me perhaps a bit of a hypercorrection, but I cannot swear that the awkwardness was anything more than unfamiliarity/Uncanny Valley.
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@wish said in KOTH Cascade:
Fighting a soldier who decided jump into your tunnel isn’t fun. The only way to deal with him isn’t fun is by spamming rockets or stickies until he dies. You can’t walk at him as scout or engineer because he has height advantage in a tunnel.
detonator works very well for pushing soldier out of your tunnel