The RGL Expiremental Map Cup is Being Wasted.

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  • @Flare said in The RGL Expiremental Map Cup is Being Wasted.:

    You want a good new map? Getting it won’t be fun. You want fun? You won’t get good new maps.

    You aren’t helping this thread. You are only giving criticism without giving any solutions. Also quit the namecalling. Your bitter and destructive attitude is not going to push out innovation.

    Offer solutions, or get the fuck out of my thread.

  • @Flare You base what you said over me thinking we need new maps.

    Upward Vigil Swiftwater Ashville Lakeside Product Cascade Steel is a solid 8 map selection and I don’t think we need new maps at all.

    CS:GO rocked Dust 2, Mirage, Train, Overpass, Nuke, Inferno, Cobblestone for the longest time and it was fantastic to play and watch. Only recently/semi-recently (correct me if I’m wrong) did they swap out Cobble for Vertigo officially, and literally today swapping Train for Ancient in the active duty pool.

    Yea you can say the maps received updates and changed over time, some even got overhauls like Dust 2, Nuke, and Inferno, but it’s still the same deal.

    Ashville got its overhaul thanks to Rorek and Hino, vigil, cascade, and product have been updated, even lakeside got a “refresh” technically.

    I think new maps can be cool and fun to play on and testing them can be fun too, but I don’t think they are necessary.

    Is a long time bad? Yes! If a team is getting rolled so hard that they get a 14 minute time on Vigil, that is not the map’s fault and is in fact usually “team dif” where you wouldn’t have fun no matter how good the map is.

    Using sand’s spreadsheet of invite stopwatch times here we can see that the average time for Upward is just about 8 minutes, Vigil is about 7 minutes, Swiftwater is 9 minutes, and Steel is 7 minutes.

    Yes, the slowest times for all the maps were around the 15 minutes mark give or take a minute, with upward not fitting in having the slowest be 11:30. But these are the slowest times, that should only happen around 2% of the time. A map like borneo has 15 minutes as the average meaning it’s the most likely outcome.

  • @Alto said in The RGL Expiremental Map Cup is Being Wasted.:

    @firepow said in The RGL Expiremental Map Cup is Being Wasted.:

    @Alto MegaPieManHD is the creator of Synthetic and is currently on working on Midwest. Both Berryville and Midwest are textured. So the idea of having testing actual experimental maps is still not out of the question.

    I didn’t realize pieman did midwest (hadn’t heard of it before this thread, definitely gonna check it out), but for you to even conceive of berryville being played in HL requires a lobotomy as the bare minimum. like, it’s beyond square peg-round hole to even consider that map. I played it in a 5am 4s pug which is normally my favorite time to play tf2 and I couldn’t even enjoy myself without constantly getting visions of the apocalypse that would occur if there 18 players on it.

    Unless the map is as open as cp_orange or as choke-heavy as dustbowl. It should be tested for competitive. I had fun playing on it in Prolander pugs. If you would like to leave feedback on it here’s the thread: https://forums.rgl.gg/topic/496/koth_berryville/4?_=1620170298732

    @Flare said in The RGL Expiremental Map Cup is Being Wasted.:

    And as regards both points above: can anyone here even formulate what exactly makes a good map? Why is fucking Product still held up as the gold standard, the KOTH map singlehandedly responsible for the entire Highlander community’s Stockholm syndrome towards their Demos and Snipers, for everyone somehow thinking it’s normal for 7/9 classes to simply not play the game and for KOTH to be braindead W-fests? There’s basically not a single argument here backed by any understanding of game design, everyone just yaps on about how “idk we’ve just always done it like this” and “oh no I don’t want to spend more than 10 minutes pushing :(”.

    Product is not the gold standard map for the majority of the playerbase. It got moved out of rotation in Season 5. Unless you are a Sniper main (Sniper dominant map), lower-level player (Snipers aren’t as effective in lower-divisions compared to Invite/Challenger), or a TF2Center goblin (only knows how to play one map), the rest of the playerbase dislikes the map.

    Every map gets slack some players and there’s no one map that everyone likes. Stop pretending there is one. If you want a discussion about good map design don’t be such a self-righteous asshole.

  • @firepow long essay

    Never mind, going to deescalate instead.

    Our Highlander community needs to formulate a clear and consistent set of design principles by which maps can be judged. These principles can then be used to provide accurate and actionable feedback to prospective map makers, so that we may finally be able to include new maps into our competitive map pool.

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  • flare this does not prove your point at all and it just makes you look both obnoxious and like a huge nerd

  • I think we should actually reintroduce Badwater and Gullywash for a season so the RGL zoomers learn firsthand on why those maps aren’t played anymore.

    I’m not even being facetious.

  • this, except for instead of badwater and gully, we put borneo and ratJAM in the pool : )

  • @Jackawa said in The RGL Expiremental Map Cup is Being Wasted.:

    jesus christ flare stop

    outside of his opinion on borneo everything @Flare’s said in this thread is objectively correct and literally cannot be argued
    the lack of consistent standards for what defines a good map has plagued this community for years
    there’s no reason real reason for him to stop and no one here can give him one

  • why do we need new maps when people r still bad at old ones !

  • @Alto said in The RGL Expiremental Map Cup is Being Wasted.:

    @Jackawa said in The RGL Expiremental Map Cup is Being Wasted.:
    the lack of consistent standards for what defines a good map has plagued this community for years

    In My Opinion For An Ideal Payload:

    • No throwaway points. Each point can defended to some degree.
    • No single point is dominated by one class.
    • Average Time is around 7-8 minutes long. The average time on Upward is 7:57, and Vigil’s is 7:01 from sand’s spreadsheet.
  • @firepow every point on borneo is holdable : )

  • @firepow said in The RGL Expiremental Map Cup is Being Wasted.:

    In My Opinion For An Ideal Payload:

    • No throwaway points. Each point can defended to some degree.
    • No single point is dominated by one class.
    • Average Time is around 7-8 minutes long. The average time on Upward is 7:57, and Vigil’s is 7:01 from sand’s spreadsheet.

    Points 1 and 3 are in direct competition with each other. Vhalin and sean, the guys who made borneo, had a shitton of testing on rushingriver as a map where ‘every point could be held’ and people were really supportive of that until every point was “defended to some degree” and someone capped in 22 minutes. The only way I could see all three of these being upheld is with a map shorter than 4 points, which isn’t necessarily a problem (we tested a 3 point PL map one time, daybreak or eclipse was the name?) but it breaks with conventional logic.

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