We need more game modes: a discussion
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standin to make a return?
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can we play rd_asteroid
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I, too, had some nerd essay, but I think I can just shorten it to this: make functioning DOM maps and get them into rotation. It’s the only gamemode that could save the shitfest that is NA HL meta. Shit’s boring as fuck.
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As someone who really only picked up competitive within the past two years, I was wondering how much the meta/game itself has changed over the past 10+ years of HL. I certainly believe maps couldn’t work in a time or place in people’s memories, but as someone who is new and doesn’t know exactly what fundamentally is different about HL now vs. then, I’m skeptical that every single map that was bad 5+ years ago is bad now.
If we have concerns about not having the manpower/interest for people to create new maps, why not resurrect something or bring in something otherwise pre-existing?
I’m doubtful something like Frontier, Mercenary Park, or whatever would work (especially without changes), but I think it’d be fun to try, and a whole lot more fun than having 0 idea how a map plays and just relying on someone else saying “TRUST ME IT SUCKS DON’T EVEN TRY IT”. Not faulting those people for trying to give their two cents and share their experience, it’s just that I tend to prefer to see hard evidence in front of me before dismissing something.
We should have pugscrims for testing maps, and while I appreciate Invite players testing out maps, I don’t think they should be the only ones testing maps and determining if they’re worthy. They should almost certainly have a heavier weighted opinion, but people in Main or whatever should at least have some input too. Everyone who isn’t RGL staff or high invite shouldn’t just sit around and wait for an excellent new map to be given to them to play.
edit: added another paragraph
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mate no “fun to try” sounds nice but in reality it just ends up with u playin the map and realizing why it was dismissed as dogshit
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@pajaro but if the mapmaker is actively updating it then those problems can be solved, rather than just dismissing the map, and then it can be come back to after improvements are made
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@supreme-toad said in We need more game modes: a discussion:
dom_canalzone
@Wall said in We need more game modes: a discussion:
standin to make a return?
@Niko-Jims said in We need more game modes: a discussion:
I, too, had some nerd essay, but I think I can just shorten it to this: make functioning DOM maps and get them into rotation. It’s the only gamemode that could save the shitfest that is NA HL meta. Shit’s boring as fuck.
This gave me an idea, and it turns out that a mapmaker had already brought that idea to life: dom_standin
It’s the same map as the official cp_standin, but uses domination timers for scoring instead of capture-all-points-to-win. Spawn and capture times are also adjusted to fit the “king of 3 hills” format.
A quick search on logs.tf reveals that this version of the map has never been playtested in comp before (and it’s also been ages since the original Standin was last played).
I feel like this map could have a lot of potential: the format allows for dynamic split pushes, like on Steel, but the map is small enough that 9v9 wouldn’t devolve into single players running around alone, like on Canalzone’s 6 capture points.
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@Iso said in We need more game modes: a discussion:
like on Canalzone’s 6 capture points.
Canalzone has 8 points
Edit: apparently the new version has 6
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dom standin puuuuugs
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the issue with most other gamemodes (and most maps in general, to be honest) is that they’re hard-focused on what works best for pubs (24+ players)
ctf in cmpa is cool because its 4v4 with item pickups where you have very specific roles that can be interchanged based on who’s up and who’s where. ctf could maybe(?) work in a very specifically made competitive mode with very specific classes hardlocked (frig off engineers, heavies, pyros, and maybe some other class) and it might work. ctf in hl seems like it’d be stalemates on stalemates as half of your team would have no reason to leave the flag
you know what’d be cool actually? payload race but the carts automatically move and can be stopped by someone on the enemy team being near it, you’d have designated defenders on their cart (cool), designated defenders on your cart (cool), some flank holders maybe, could even have actual roamer gameplay in hl perhaps (really cool, fuck da black box). the coolest part would be that instead of holding 1 point repeatedly like in koth, with the cart moving, you would constantly be fighting in new territory which could be really cool, would require teams to be good at adapting or something. probably a bad idea actually but idk sounds pretty tight to me man
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You know Asher, that kind of reminds me of when tug-of-war was run in HL
But overall one of the main issues is designing a map for Comp play and not pub play
I know in HL it is hard to get new maps due to the player base not really helping the map creator. Be that via testing the map, giving proper feedback, ect. Highlander players really don’t want to try new thingsNow take that general idea and apply it to game modes, if it is nearly impossible to rotate new maps in that are the same game mode imagine trying to move in a new game mode into the season
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so we’re all just repeating the points that were already made in this discussion - that new gamemodes themselves arent necessarily unworkable, but that design and testing maps for them is a tremendous challenge. so what else is the solution to the dearth of good maps for tf2? shouldn’t we be working at getting more mapmakers to take community input (and have places players take seriously to give them input) and develop strong maps such ideally the map pool should be able to be rotated in and out season to season
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@vibeisveryo
I think maybe I didn’t state this clear enough in my post, and if so, my bad. We have people who have basic mapping skills (gobitoe, joey lemons, and hino all come to mind) who know their way around hammer. Modding an existing map and creating a brand new one from scratch are very different workloads/commitments/difficulties. The easiest way imo to make a ‘new’ map is just to take an existing map that “doesn’t quite work” and make a pro version of it.Obviously we’d need mapmakers that would be willing to do these things, but something like pl_borneo_pro, pl_frontier_pro, koth_highpass_pro, cp_mercenary_park_pro, cp_process_hl, koth_bagel_hl, etc. would be a lot easier for a community of this size to handle and pull off decently rather than pray a guy comes along to make an entire map from scratch.
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i really liked millstone except for last, can we get millstone_pro??
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I have a question. Historically, has there been any formal/official collaboration/program between RGL and TF2maps in their respective capacity as organizations?
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@vibeisveryo
If you want me to be honest, the competitive community has shot itself time and time again when it comes to new maps.
This is illustrated when it comes to the idea of wanting to do map testing, giving constructive or workable feedback to the map developer, to extreme measures of pushing the map developer out of ever wanting to do mapping for this community.
People always “want” new maps. That is nothing new. However, when it comes to the work of playing a new map and helping shape the map to a state where it can be accepted by the community – that can be too much of a tall order.
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@exa said in We need more game modes: a discussion:
@vibeisveryo
If you want me to be honest, the competitive community has shot itself time and time again when it comes to new maps.
This is illustrated when it comes to the idea of wanting to do map testing, giving constructive or workable feedback to the map developer, to extreme measures of pushing the map developer out of ever wanting to do mapping for this community.
People always “want” new maps. That is nothing new. However, when it comes to the work of playing a new map and helping shape the map to a state where it can be accepted by the community – that can be too much of a tall order.
i typed like 3 nerd essays before settling with “millstone almost good” and u summed up my thoughts exactly