This community will always have a problem with harassment as long as people continue to think it’s unsolvable. Speaking up about toxic behaviour works, and telling people what they’re doing isn’t acceptable also works. When you counter harassment and toxicity, You lend confidence to people too afraid to speak up, and push back against the idea that toxic behaviour is something that we should just accept.

On a personal note, people can be incredibly shitty and I don’t blame anyone for realizing they can’t do it anymore, but it’s sad to think about the people we loose from this issue. I hope whatever hobbies you take up in the future go well for you rona.

@Kastaling said in Harassment in the RGL Community:

after reading almost everything posted here, I’m starting to think that people here just don’t know that the “block” button exists. In RGL you really don’t have to communicate or associate with people you don’t want to, and if you do it’s always in a protected format, like matches or scrims even (and those are optional against those people).

Really curious how the block button would solve someone making an entire video about you that involves body shaming.

also y’all should really do a better job managing your online presence, stuff that they taught to us in like 3rd grade about the internet. I keep my online alias separate from my real life stuff as much as I can. Of course I don’t post on social media at all, but if you do, there are clear risks associated with it, so you can’t entirely blame others. and just to be clear this isn’t victim blaming. there’s a difference between telling people to take preventative measures because people can be shitty and full-on victim-blaming.

So you’re not victim blaming but you think it was rona’s fault for putting pictures out there.

also I’ve never met you before rona but sorry if you did get body shamed, I’ve dealt with that a lot IRL and its not very good, my sympathies.

“You didn’t follow basic safety precautions a third grader should know, but my sympathies”

Also, this you?

Because I feel like you may in fact be one of the toxic people we are talking about here.

I’m taking this as a declaration of aggression.

@Kastaling said in Harassment in the RGL Community:

If RGL ain’t banning whole harassment campaigns then once again, they’re at fault. But blocking those involved usually doesn’t give them much to work with. not feeding the trolls is internet 101 and many people forget that. Not saying that about anyone specifically, but a general thing.

When our communications take place in public discords and other public spaces, blocking does nothing because they can easily use alts, or get a friend to do their screengrabbing for them. RGL banning people is good, but also I think people should be distancing themselves and saying these harassment behaviours aren’t acceptable. RGL also only focuses on behaviour on its platforms (and this isn’t a statement that the police should change, just acknowledgement) which means it’s up the community to hold up behaviours.

this is getting a bit off topic, but to address this quickly: it’s literally just a word. also the main humor i get from that is that one of the most influential writers of the 20th century named his cat something like that, and its something that mainstream culture doesn’t really know about. Its literally the same joke as “the 25th island of Greece” or “the scientific name of a pig”.

The other two things you listed are funny because they’re among us jokes which is pretty minor as far as jokes go. Lovecraft’s legacy is tinted with the fact that he was racist, and the reason the cat joke is funny to you is you’re tricking someone into seeing a racial slur. You may view racial slurs as just words, but you have to realize that people beyond you don’t feel that way. Tricking people into viewing something potentially upsetting is the underlying issue of toxicity.

@WolfTeeth said in Harassment in the RGL Community:

I am saying this normal only exists because gamers /will/ rip you to shreds if they find out what you look like. (This also applies to your replay to fleeble, I just snipped it off for length

I don’t think it’s just gamers in general, really just anyone online. if i post a picture of myself in a Mongolian basket-weaving forum such as 4chan on a thread I make, people are gonna meme it if they find a reason. if I do the same on reddit and people find a reason to meme my face, they will. its just a precaution one takes on the internet in general.

4chan is not a fair comparison because that is also a terrible cesspit, and I wouldn’t post a selfie there either. On the other hand I’ve been on places on reddit, twitter, other smaller sites where people would post social selfies and…nothing bad happened. Because the mods of that community held up standards that selfies were okay, and people who made shitty comments about selfies were either removed or actively pushed aside.

I will fully admit at this point we’re probably going to start talking past each other (I also feel like you skipped over my most salient post of my last post). And my point about lovecraft’s cat was probably more antagonizing than it needed to be, though I genuinely to believe that a causal attitude towards slurs is part of the problem.

Please just consider how others feel about this stuff. Ultimately I’m not pushing back because I think you are a bad person or some shit, I want to convince people there is a real problem, and real change can happen.

This is more for the whole thread but if you see something say something. try to confront people on toxic behaviour, or try to support them learning to undo toxic behaviour. and yes, I mean you whoever is reading this right now. change can happen if we work on it.

Hit submit too soon, sorry.

“haver thicker skin” is an excuse bigots use to keep saying hurtful shit. It also in this context means “stop letting hurtful things hurt you” which no. I’m not gonna be quiet about hurtful things because again, people are saying those things to be hurtful.

I think policing private discords would be a fucking incredibly difficult task from the RGL side of things, but I also think it’s silly to say that people using bigoted language is good, fine, and not a reflection how they see others.

she is the imposter

@norfnorf said in Competitive TF2, Harassment, and Volunteering:

I honestly pity those who are unintelligent enough to not mute someone being rude to them and instead cry to the admins and make their lives more complicated.

For RGL pugs and the RGL discord I genuinely want people to “make my life more complicated” with reports. I obviously can’t speak for other departments but part of combating this sort of thing is knowing what’s going on, and evidence of behaviour. Reports exist for a reason, and the ability to act on them is important for various reasons, including fighting the kind harassment listed in the OP.

@Benjy52 said in Harassment in the RGL Community:

@/Bliztank Pretty much what I’m saying. If you don’t be around it in the first place it won’t happen - and as I said in a previous comment, take it on the chin and just keep away from it if you don’t want this to happen to you. RGL is NOT politics, everyone is going to have a different opinion on the story and some like to see what the other side has to say instead of instantly feeling bad for the victim . We can’t make any full on decisions with just one source, innocent until proven guilty is a thing.

This is on it’s face ridiculous. People who decide to harass someone might not care about distance. Sometimes it might help, but that doesn’t mean it always well. If people are going out of there way to find old social media posts and make videos, this suggests the people are fairly dedicated, and even if you don’t talk to them, they’re still invested in continuing this.

People who do this sort of thing might not target their friends, but if you have a falling out then there’s no protection there. Association nor distance doesn’t guarantee safety, but telling yourself you’re safe because you don’t associate with certain people can be a great way of ignoring the issue.

As far as both sides/innocent until proven guilty: rona didn’t name any names in her post. She didn’t specifically accuse anyone. I also do not think there is a reasonable justification for dragging tf2 stuff to body shaming. What someone looks like should not matter, and anyone doing that is firmly on the wrong side of things. Harassment, racism, sexism, and toxicity should not be welcome at all.

People should be able to exist in the tf2 community without being mocked and hated on for the gender and appearance, full stop.

@Kastaling said in Harassment in the RGL Community:

If RGL ain’t banning whole harassment campaigns then once again, they’re at fault. But blocking those involved usually doesn’t give them much to work with. not feeding the trolls is internet 101 and many people forget that. Not saying that about anyone specifically, but a general thing.

When our communications take place in public discords and other public spaces, blocking does nothing because they can easily use alts, or get a friend to do their screengrabbing for them. RGL banning people is good, but also I think people should be distancing themselves and saying these harassment behaviours aren’t acceptable. RGL also only focuses on behaviour on its platforms (and this isn’t a statement that the police should change, just acknowledgement) which means it’s up the community to hold up behaviours.

this is getting a bit off topic, but to address this quickly: it’s literally just a word. also the main humor i get from that is that one of the most influential writers of the 20th century named his cat something like that, and its something that mainstream culture doesn’t really know about. Its literally the same joke as “the 25th island of Greece” or “the scientific name of a pig”.

The other two things you listed are funny because they’re among us jokes which is pretty minor as far as jokes go. Lovecraft’s legacy is tinted with the fact that he was racist, and the reason the cat joke is funny to you is you’re tricking someone into seeing a racial slur. You may view racial slurs as just words, but you have to realize that people beyond you don’t feel that way. Tricking people into viewing something potentially upsetting is the underlying issue of toxicity.

@WolfTeeth said in Harassment in the RGL Community:

I am saying this normal only exists because gamers /will/ rip you to shreds if they find out what you look like. (This also applies to your replay to fleeble, I just snipped it off for length

I don’t think it’s just gamers in general, really just anyone online. if i post a picture of myself in a Mongolian basket-weaving forum such as 4chan on a thread I make, people are gonna meme it if they find a reason. if I do the same on reddit and people find a reason to meme my face, they will. its just a precaution one takes on the internet in general.

4chan is not a fair comparison because that is also a terrible cesspit, and I wouldn’t post a selfie there either. On the other hand I’ve been on places on reddit, twitter, other smaller sites where people would post social selfies and…nothing bad happened. Because the mods of that community held up standards that selfies were okay, and people who made shitty comments about selfies were either removed or actively pushed aside.

I will fully admit at this point we’re probably going to start talking past each other (I also feel like you skipped over my most salient post of my last post). And my point about lovecraft’s cat was probably more antagonizing than it needed to be, though I genuinely to believe that a causal attitude towards slurs is part of the problem.

Please just consider how others feel about this stuff. Ultimately I’m not pushing back because I think you are a bad person or some shit, I want to convince people there is a real problem, and real change can happen.

This is more for the whole thread but if you see something say something. try to confront people on toxic behaviour, or try to support them learning to undo toxic behaviour. and yes, I mean you whoever is reading this right now. change can happen if we work on it.

@Kastaling said in Harassment in the RGL Community:

I forgot to mention that, but I’m pretty sure at that point you report it to RGL and if they don’t ban the people involved at that point then that’s RGL’s fault then. but it actually can help towards that, generally if you just entirely ignore someone who’s fucking with you/trolling you then they generally get bored. I’ve used it before and it works pretty well.

I will concede RGL banning these would be better, but I still think the block button only stops people being toxic at you, if they want to organize a harassment campaign, that’s not something easily solved by blocking.

@WolfTeeth said in Harassment in the RGL Community:

So you’re not victim blaming but you think it was rona’s fault for putting pictures out there.

i literally never said it was anyone’s fault entirely, you’re deliberately (or very, very ignorantly) misinterpreting what I say here. There are measures that any victim can take to mitigate their chances of being a victim. If I leave my car in the most crime-ridden part of the city, unlocked, is it my fault that it got robbed and jacked? Not entirely, but you cannot say that there aren’t things I could’ve done to prevent that.

I think we’re at an impasse here. I’m visibly disabled. I’ve had people yell, throw shit at me, push me. And no this isn’t a story from middle school, this is all within the last year. You go online to vibe and you have to put up with more shit, and you get told over and over again that you just need to be less, do less, keep hiding parts of yourself away so your oppressors don’t find you. And I don’t know how to explain how shitty that feels. At that point walking away feels easy than how you’re being asked to chop up parts of yourself.

@WolfTeeth said in Harassment in the RGL Community:

because I find an extremely mildly edgy joke funny I’m somehow in leagues with people that create entire videos doxxing people and bodyshame people? I’m sorry that’s just one of the biggest conclusions jumps I’ve ever seen. I literally asked RGL staff if it was okay, they said no, so I didn’t do it. Would you have preferred if I had just named it like that without asking the staff?

I’d prefer you didn’t find the n-word funny at all actually. That is a very low standard to meet. Yes it’s different from making videos, but this community’s comfort with slurs is also part of the problem.

I think its a norm, every single gamer community I’ve been a part of I don’t share any personal information unless I feel comfortable with the people I’m sharing it with. and if they betray my trust than that’s just an issue of trusting the wrong people.

I am saying this normal only exists because gamers /will/ rip you to shreds if they find out what you look like. (This also applies to your replay to fleeble, I just snipped it off for length

@lucki said in Harassment in the RGL Community:

There is nothing wrong with sharing pictures of yourself with people you trust. The point I am making is that there will ALWAYS be people doing evil things such as doxxing in every community. People should protect themselves. That is all. No one is arguing that people should be allowed to dox people. The problem is, we don’t live in an idealistic society where everyone can post whatever they want without being made fun of. It’s impossible. You can do your best to mitigate it, but you will never eradicate it.

No you don’t understand this. I would be find posting a selfie openly if all I did was involve myself in the sewing community or idk the fishing community, or other places where commenting and using your body against you isn’t normalized. Gaming communities uniquely make this risky.

@lucki said in Harassment in the RGL Community:

@WolfTeeth
Everyone I know IRL has a private social media account. The only people who have public accounts that I’ve seen are people who overshare, and influencers.

I feel like you have some built in bias if you dismiss anyone having public social media as oversharing.

Again, I will say that for instance, sewing communities I’m involved people will take selfies showing off their projects, and no one looses their shit. Because it’s entirely possibly to have community norms that are against toxicity.

@lucki said in Harassment in the RGL Community:

@WolfTeeth said in Harassment in the RGL Community:

So you’re not victim blaming but you think it was rona’s fault for putting pictures out there.

There is a reason most normal people keep their social media private except to their friends. How else is he supposed to frame it, just curious.

This isn’t the norm you think it is. Everyone in the tf2 community keeps their identity under wraps because this place is a cesspit. In non-gamer communities I’m in people do share selfies, post pictures if they’re happy with their outfit, think they look good today, or whatever. When I wasn’t active in tf2 I did share selfies on my social media platform of choice. All of that got scrubbed when I became active in tf2 because I knew what would come of it.

@Kastaling said in Harassment in the RGL Community:

after reading almost everything posted here, I’m starting to think that people here just don’t know that the “block” button exists. In RGL you really don’t have to communicate or associate with people you don’t want to, and if you do it’s always in a protected format, like matches or scrims even (and those are optional against those people).

Really curious how the block button would solve someone making an entire video about you that involves body shaming.

also y’all should really do a better job managing your online presence, stuff that they taught to us in like 3rd grade about the internet. I keep my online alias separate from my real life stuff as much as I can. Of course I don’t post on social media at all, but if you do, there are clear risks associated with it, so you can’t entirely blame others. and just to be clear this isn’t victim blaming. there’s a difference between telling people to take preventative measures because people can be shitty and full-on victim-blaming.

So you’re not victim blaming but you think it was rona’s fault for putting pictures out there.

also I’ve never met you before rona but sorry if you did get body shamed, I’ve dealt with that a lot IRL and its not very good, my sympathies.

“You didn’t follow basic safety precautions a third grader should know, but my sympathies”

Also, this you?

Because I feel like you may in fact be one of the toxic people we are talking about here.

She has been tucked in.

This community will always have a problem with harassment as long as people continue to think it’s unsolvable. Speaking up about toxic behaviour works, and telling people what they’re doing isn’t acceptable also works. When you counter harassment and toxicity, You lend confidence to people too afraid to speak up, and push back against the idea that toxic behaviour is something that we should just accept.

On a personal note, people can be incredibly shitty and I don’t blame anyone for realizing they can’t do it anymore, but it’s sad to think about the people we loose from this issue. I hope whatever hobbies you take up in the future go well for you rona.

Looking to play scout for the upcoming season. I’m reliable, I try.

Reach out to me on steam or discord (linked in my RGL profile)

Nice guy, plays spy, but still a decent human bean. Knows how to backstab probably.