Let me just begin by clarifying that I don’t disagree with this post in principle in the slightest. Having unique ways to play the game that challenge players to outsmart their opponents, especially as opposed to just winning DM fights, is an excellent thing.

That being said, I think there are a number of logistical problems with actually trying to add new gamemodes to our existing formats of comp tf2 that it is not sustainable in our current community with its size and focus. Note that, as a baseline to compare against, it is hard enough to add new maps for existing gamemodes to any of the formats - they face stiff resistance, it is near impossible to get serious playtesting done short of actually adding the map to an EXP Cup, one of which happens at best twice a year, and mapmakers may be apprehensive to create new maps for a community that just tends to stick to its preconceived notions about them anyway. Note that I believe that, volume of maps to be tested permitting, frequent EXP cups, if not to actually determine whether a map is suitable for inclusion in a regular season to give the mapmaker feedback on how to improve it so as to make it more fun or playable, are an ecellennt idea and if they were implemented, would make this idea a whole lot more feasible.

For gamemodes like KoTH, 5CP, and Payload, there are clear mapping standards for competitively viable maps - for example, for KoTH, there is the clear area-connector-area-connector-area-midpoint layout that most maps tend to follow, and for Payload there’s the unwritten rule that for each point there tends to be only one strong hold - such standards do not exist for other gamemodes and would require mapmakers already familiar with how comp tf2 plays (who are already few and far between) to improvise and theorycraft the map design such that it would not follow a standard that works in pubs but cannot work in comp.

Take for example the standard layout of Capture the Flag maps. Setting aside the outdated layouts of 2fort or Sawmill that make you literally go into a basement with two chokepoints to retrieve the intel, even on modern and well-designed maps like Landfall, the intel is right next to its team’s spawn, meaning that against a competent team, especially one with classes like Engineer, for example, retrieving the intel with just a dry push would be near impossible, and you would need Uber AND significant other advantages to retrieve the intel - other advantages like players up to get close enough to the intel to take it in a clean Uber push, and Uber to actually reach the intel (god forbid the other team has Uber too).

This is not to say that CTF is competitively unviable. It might very well be, but there might very well be an ideal CTF map design that maximizes both fun and competitive rigour for players in one of our existing competitive formats. The problem is that this ideal map design is so far unknown, meaning that mapmakers would have to play with simple trial and error to figure out what that map design is, which, given the constraints that already exist for competitive map designers and the mental block many people would have to seriously giving feedback for a CTF map and considering its merits (and knowing what feedback to give!) makes it a formidable task for any mapmaker that requires significant personal time and effort investment, and not necessarily one that will pay off.

Then there is the problem that some gamemodes have fundamental flaws that make it impossible to make a map that is competitively rigorous. For example, Mannpower has random power-up spawns, making it possible for one team to beat another through pure luck of the draw on what power-ups spawned on their side. Obviously, this is bad. Then, Player Destruction (the format you mentioned "What about a mode where it’s just a kill fest where people collect points and need to score them? ") has a gamebreaking flaw in that the player carrying the most points on each team has the self- and area-healing and ammo restore power at the rate of e Level 1 Dispenser, which makes it a whole lot harder for a team to kill any players who simply stick to their “team leader” as I believe the mechanic calls that player.

This is not to say that these barriers are insurmountable. For sure, my post is a bit disingenuous - you’re making an idealistic appeal, but I’m responding by citing realistic barriers, and not ones that cannot be overcome with enough willpower. My question is simply if that willpower actually exists. I believe that with enough effort, enough changes to the community to allow for, for example, more frequent EXP cups to give mapmakers feedback, and enough accommodation by existing players who encourage forward thinking mapmakers, anything you said in this post is possible. Am I for it? Also yes, but I’d definitely not be the one spearheading it just because of how much effort it is. What do you say about these challenges?

@Kastaling said in Addressing Racism/Anti-LGBTQ Speech on Off-Platform Media:

Once again, I say this; GROW THICKER SKIN.

Unfortunately, this always tends to be a bit of a strawman and really doesn’t work in context. That’s mainly because growing thicker skin is not an option for some people.

Although some of you may not believe it based on my earlier posts, I am not easily offended. When someone uses one of the “big three” slurs or others, I can easily laugh it off. I can even use the one that applies to me in certain people’s company. Because of this, I have the privileged position of being able to simply ignore, or make a reasoned/civil argument, when someone expresses opinions that directly derogate someone’s identity. Even though one of the “big three” slurs applies to me, I really don’t care or get offended, on a personal level, when someone uses that slur. But not everyone has this position.

I’ve come to know several people who, because of who they are, have been disowned, kicked out of their houses, lost any hope at inheritance they had, ostracized by their school communities, passed up for jobs because of what bathroom they came out of, or at worst, even attacked because of who they are.

Some of these people used to be in RGL. There may be some like them still in RGL.

I ask you: Is it fair to place the burden of growing thicker skin on them, who have already had to deal with countless burdens in their lives? Is it fair to say that they, who have this constant reminder in the form of a word of the hardships they have suffered, are the ones at wrong because they are offended by a word whose existence so many people take lightly?

This is not about a minority imposing its will on the majority, either. I think you will find that most people in or outside the league, whether or not they support OP, are opposed to the use of racial slurs because in whatever context they are used, they demean people.

So the fact that this discussion is about “growing thicker skin” shows how prevalent this rot, if you will, is within the TF2 community. The burden should rightfully be on those who use slurs to not use slurs, an action which can directly cause harm. Any less is an attitude that tells everyone that you (not you, Kastaling, just the audience of this post in general) are more important than the people who would be harmed. And so this discussion should not be about thick skin or thin skin at all, or if it is right or wrong to say slurs. It should be about whether it is feasible or not for RGL to act off of reports gathered on such platforms, and what should be the extent of this.

The second waterfall hold is really janky to push because they only have to watch one angle and they are comparatively very safe, especially the medic, and have high ground and can watch everything.

This could be fixed in two ways IMO. One is to straight up remove the waterfall area as far as gameplay is concerned, walling it off with glass. This essentially forces defense to play in a passive position, though, so idk how good it is - others may have better input. The other way could be to link the left area to the waterfall - this would force players holding in that position to watch two angles with less safety, allowing flank to play more on that point.

Also, in general I feel like players have to commit too hard to 2nd to cap it, maybe because the point is really far back. I’m not entirely sure how big of a problem this is or how it could be fixed, though. Maybe making the stream under the waterfall less deep and moving point into it?

@Ampy said in Addressing Racism/Anti-LGBTQ Speech on Off-Platform Media:

I can understand your argument, and would like to raise an objection that pug groups are essential. I find it incredibly unlikely that people will grow to higher level TF2 based solely on scrim time and matches alone. Consistently throughout my career I’ve been instructed or advised to join pugs to improve. It is not absolutely necessary, but I think players would severely hamper their growth and improvements by not taking this advice. Which then leads to the issue at hand of all the pug groups I’m aware of being filled with the toxic behavior.

Hopefully RGL Pugs on launch will help mitigate this, with greater accessibility and reach than Discord Pugs.

@Kodyn With regards to the naming scheme - it makes sense why you do it, but multiple scrims I’ve played so far have had issues with the server host using the commands, often instructed by others/by unofficial guides out there, to exec configs such as exec rgl_HL_stopwatch, but they did nothing, and we ended up playing out a scrim with no stopwatch and on the default config. I feel like this is an issue that is likely to pop up over and over again, and this will create the necessity for two sets of instructions - one for all non-Qixalite servers using the official config names like exec rgl_HL_stopwatch and one for Qixalite servers using your own config names such as exec rgl/HL_stopwatch - this is bound to generate much confusion and possibly the need for rounds played all over again or banned weapons being used, etc.

Is there a way you could create a simple server side alias to match the config names we RGL players are used to, and that we tell everyone who asks to exec, to the config names you use? For example, an rgl_HL_stopwatch.cfg file that contains one line: exec rgl/HL_stopwatch - so that your updating service can update rgl/HL_stopwatch but using exec rgl_HL_stopwatch will still get RGL players to the right config.

The thumbs up button seems out of the way & rarely gets used from what I’ve seen. Is this something y’all want to/care to change?

@luka said in We need more game modes: a discussion:

One of the benefits of adding even at least one more game mode is making it reasonable to rotate out Product or even Upward for a season.

I think this could just as easily be addressed by heavily encouraging new map development in payload and koth for HL or 5cp and koth for 6s, so that the whole map pool rotates out season to season. This is ideal imo. It sidesteps the problems of gamemodes being unfun and little continuity, while still keeping things fresh

In today’s pugs, feedback I heard a lot was:

1- the ammo (and health) seems out of the way/hard to find on this map

2- there is a hold on last, from red’s perspective on the top left, that is very strong and near impossible to break since it’s close to spawn and also watches everything.

consider upward, where the only holds that are that easily accessible from spawn are distanced from the cap and players on cart are shielded from people holding there, for example from the crates. Therefore a much stronger hold is in Tiles, which is not very easy to reach from spawn.

i think last could be much better if that hold wasn’t as safe or it wasn’t as easy to spam cart/players on the ground from there, while the hold across was strong as usual.

Hey fellas, I’m Vibe. Currently leading a high IM team - led an Amateur team to 2nd place last season - both seasons on medic. I also have two seasons of exp from UGC - s18 and s19. I’m committed to improving and can keep your team healthy.

https://rgl.gg/Public/PlayerProfile.aspx?p=76561198152690088&r=24

I don’t think golden cap would be viable with how risk averse people are on it. IMO a tiebreaker round would just have to be a midfight

Spawn timers seem too long on offense 1st and 2nd.

@Kastaling if they are truly their friends only in there then they should have no problem saying stuff everyone is comfortable with without it being reported, and it definitely shouldn’t be targeted harasssment in there

@Kastaling much more so than in real life, where many organizations are already taking an approach like that advocated in OP. for example universities routinely expel students who post racist things outside their spaces

@Kastaling no, but the problem of racism is essentially endemic in any video gaming community

@Papaya because an rgl-peripheral platform influences the health of the league

@Kawaiyi said in Addressing Racism/Anti-LGBTQ Speech on Off-Platform Media:

@Kastaling He literally posted this about himself in a public discord.

so i’m laughing at how poorly written the test is.

i don’t get what you’re getting at? i mostly agree with you here

@Kastaling the league is responsible for protecting its members to a reasonable extent. if someone, through the league, finds a team server or pug server, and then something happens there that would hurt them, then they are being let down by the league.

@toast so i don’t think someone should be banned for just saying a soft-a in a team server, as part of the lighter, more discretionary hand rgl should use on such platforms. but if someone is being seriously bullied or excluded because of who they are, it should be treated as bannable

@D but then as i said team servers/pug servers exist in the periphery of the league and actions there can still cause people in the league to be hurt or leave the league. so if someone bullies someone in a team server to the point of depressive thoughts, self harm, or suicide, surely you don’t believe that just because it’s not in RGL.gg #serious-discussions, that it shouldn’t be punished by the league? because that’s what i mean by targeted harassment

@toast yeah sure that’s fair, but rgl should consider off-platform stuff which they straight up don’t.