@ckrow u the kinda guy to show up an hour late to a 30 minute meeting

Looks like much has been said since I was last here, so I’ll respond to as much as I can. It’ll be very tedious to read through this whole thing, so I’ll section it off for people who are only interested in certain parts.

Contents:

Section 1 - Response to Flare. TL;DR, Thanks to Flare for an eloquent summary of what I’ve been saying, and for giving analysis to support my point system.

Section 2 - Response to vibe and rants about polls. TL;DR, all evidence shows that it would be worthwhile to poll on my match point system.

Section 3 - Complaints about RGL admin methodology. TL;DR, the admins think they know better than us all, but this is ridiculous. The community is able to handle most of the decision making without them, they just need to run the polls

Section 4 - Response to Mothership. TL;DR, counting halves instead of rounds on KOTH makes no sense. We have the ability to count rounds, so we should.

Section 1

Thanks to @Flare for adding more details to what I have been saying this whole time, and thanks to @vibeisveryo for once again not reading what I have said, and “disagreeing with me” while still claiming things that are in line with what I am saying.

Flare has correctly identified why I am in favor of purely win/loss, and the problems I have pointed out with the polls. Once again, my main priority here is to get a fair poll to happen. I don’t care if I lose the poll, just that my view is given a fair chance, which as Flare explained, it has not yet gotten.

Section 2

As you stated vibe,

Polls consistently favour the match point system that exists, not some mythical one where all rounds in a match are weighed equally, to win-loss. There is absolutely nothing, in this conversation, to be derived from poll results, since they are silent on the topic of discussion: the match point system as you suggest.

This is the heart of the problem. You cannot possibly know what popular opinion is on my pure rounds match point system because you have failed to poll it. That is why I want it polled. Results clearly show that win/loss isn’t preferred, so you have absolutely no reason to believe that a system that doesn’t count wins at all wouldn’t be preferred to the current system. As you stated, I similarly have no compelling reason to think that my system would be preferred either, but until you poll it, you can’t know. There is not “ample justification” for the current system. Only a small group of admins (probably not even admins anymore) who think they know better then everyone else (they don’t) and inconclusive polls from years ago that all agree suck at showing anything.

I’m not “hiding behind polls,” I’ve very clearly stated why my system is better, you’ve seen several people agree with me. I don’t claim to know what the results of the fair poll will be, but my match point system clearly deserves a shot in the polls.

It’s also completely alien for anyone to suggest that this isn’t worth polling, as it is an issue that has been historically decided by polls. We wouldn’t be having this discussion if there weren’t existing polls that I’ve been referencing this entire time. It’s very obviously worth polling because it has been polled before several times, and all those polls did a poor job extracting information.

The real fallacy here is thinking that my opinion doesn’t have support, when it absolutely does. I don’t just think about random things and decide to post them on the forums, I hear complaints from actual RGL players that it doesn’t make sense that the ratios of match points aren’t the same in KOTH and in stopwatch. Just because you don’t have hordes of people ranting on the forums doesn’t mean they won’t agree with me. The 10 people on the forums that have discussed this issue cannot decide the results of the poll that should be taken. None of us know the results until we run the poll. I even wrote it for you, its so simple.

As for actual criticisms of my system, I have addressed every single one as they have come. Most comments replying to me have been unrelated to my system, and are either personal attacks or just plain incorrect claims about what I am stating. If you want to question the match point system I proposed, feel free to do so. Just don’t be surprised when I respond by quoting myself, as I have already explained everything about it. The bigger problem is that you don’t understand what your job is as a league admin. Yes, I do know what your job is. If I was slightly more tolerant of the stupidity of others, I would probably still be an admin at this point, and I would have accomplished significantly more than most admins do, all for the betterment of the league.

Section 3

Like I mentioned before, I don’t blame you for not making noticing what I have pointed out in this thread. People who are not me do not usually take the time to discover hidden abominations introduced years ago by clueless people that happened to be in charge at the time. For what it’s worth, the current match point system served it’s purpose, and the person who made it was certainly very creative. It’s not their fault that we are using it, it’s probably just something they came up with on the spot. If you take any logical look at it though, you’ll realize that the only reason you’re defending it is tradition. If you put 100 people in a room and ask them to come up with a fair system for match points, probably 80 or more will reproduce my system. It’s not complicated, and is objectively the most fair way to divide points. I don’t blame anyone for not thinking of it originally, but I will place blame on you for not realizing that I am completely correct to say that you have no idea whether or not people like it.

If the admin team didn’t want to get criticized so much by the community, it would do them good to ask us what we want more often. Secondly, if you run a poll and implement what the majority wanted, then you can default respond to any complaints with “it seems a majority of people prefer this, and I suggest you try convincing your fellow players if you want a change”. The it puts accountability on the rest of the community to make sure issues are resolved correctly, and if there is reason to believe that there has been a change of opinion, you poll again. There is no reason not to put that responsibility on our shoulders, because TF2 players in RGL are a very dedicated group of people. If we didn’t care about it, we wouldn’t be playing this really old game. This is a niche you don’t see in most league throughout gaming and sports, but for once you actually can count on the people to always solve things themselves. After all, you are just a volunteer, and you have no reason to believe you can do anything better than anyone else.

The most upsetting an admin can ever say is what you said here.

The people are not always right, and even when they are, getting the people’s pulse is often more trouble than it’s worth.

The people are always right, sorry. The success of the league is defined by player satisfaction. If you satisfy more players, you’re doing better. S4rr claims that it’s unfair to let losing teams decide because they may be a majority, but this is also wrong. If the majority of teams are losing teams, then that’s how it is, and it only makes sense to count their rounds fairly…

If you poll, you do what the majority votes for. If you don’t poll, you don’t have a clue what the majority wants. You don’t need to run polls for every single detail, but you should try to run them as much as possible, especially for issues like this that actually effect a large number of people in the league. If you don’t like the results of a poll, firstly, too bad, and secondly, then you need to try harder to convince people to change their minds. If they don’t change their minds, then you have to accept you are in the minority. Polls are not that hard to run, I was there to help run them and it was always worth it.

vibe, I don’t have anything personal against you, I know it’s not your fault that all the admins are like this. They’ve taught you to be like this, I just hope that one of you sees the flaw in this thinking eventually.

Section 4

Moving on…
@Mothership This is still problematic as I discussed before, because we can easily quantify every single round taken, so there is no reason not to. We can always know exactly how many rounds a team wins, so its absurd to just plain ignore some round wins. Of course though… if we really want to know what people think of this, then include it in the poll (!! Remember not to have multiple options without rank choice though !!)

ill pick you up

Okay so… now lets run the poll. Seems pretty clear that we should be doing it now.

@Pain-Seer I can’t speak for vibe, but my point is that the way to solve rounding issues is to just write things down in a way that a way that doesn’t cause rounding issues. This can be accomplished by just using fractions, or by using the method suggested by Flare of storing more decimals than displayed. We shouldn’t change the match point system itself to round just because it looks better. Rounding and representation should be an afterthought and should never corrupt the purity of whatever match point system we decide on.

@Flare I didn’t mean to imply that you were in favor of using your poll to create direct action. I just meant to comment on what the correct usage of such a poll should be.

I also forgot earlier to address another part of your previous post. The aesthetics of the match point are in no way relevant and should never be considered part of the discussion. Whatever we determine to be the best system should not be compromised in favor a nice representation of it on the league table. You did suggest that we could store data with greater precision than what we display, which is an acceptable option. You did mention later when discussing the 80/20 method that we could round to get nice figures. We should never be rounding in any case that alters the system we decide to be correct, regardless of whatever that system may be.

Thirdly, the point I was making about your example was that it exists only in theory. We don’t need to account for it in the match point system because its not going to happen. Even if it did, I’ll still bite the bullet and say that your intuition about which team is superior is wrong. The regular season is not about finding which teams beat which other teams, its about finding the correct seeding for playoffs. Playoffs is the only time where we really care about who beats who. If a team is consistently getting close games, they’ll be more relevant in playoffs than a team that we know wont stand a chance against top teams.

@Flare I have a few notes on some things you said.

Note: See the edit below my post, but this first paragraph is what I originally wrote.

Firstly, I know Flare shouldn’t be the one to explain what he mentioned about a former admin “rigging” a poll, so I’ll elaborate. What Flare refers to is when I wrote the Cascade vs Lakeside poll for season 7 (Maybe season 6 or season 8? I don’t remember). I came out the encounter saying that I “rigged” the poll, but this was mostly a joke because I knew what the results of it were going to be before it was even published. It wasn’t actually rigged in any sense, as there was no misconduct in counting it, there was no fraud, and the wording wasn’t misleading. The difference was that I worded the poll to explain directly the consequences of the results of the poll, rather than polling something more general. Precisely what happened was that Lakeside was favored over Cascade by some small margin like a few percent, but keeping Lakeside in the rotation would mean playing the same map pool twice in a row (This was the precursor to the later poll that introduced the seasonal rotation). I knew that, even though people preferred Lakeside to Cascade in direct comparison, most people didn’t want to play the same maps. Hence, I wrote the poll to indicate that the map pool would be identical if we kept Lakeside in. I believe a vast majority, something like 70% of people voted to not play Lakeside. This was obvious to me before the poll went out because I knew that most people cared more about rotation than about what map we played. In this sense, I still believe that I did my job to extract the correct information, and when told Flare that I “rigged” the poll, it was not meant to be taken literally. He of course, never the details of the encounter, so I don’t blame him for citing it in his essay.

Regarding your math on percentage of rounds won, I’ll remind people of something that I know that Flare knows, but he fails to mention. My system to assign match points is not equivalent to computing rankings based on percentage of rounds won for the entire season. I argue that match points for a given match should be divided according to rounds won, which accounts for the fact that there are more rounds in a KOTH match than a stopwatch map. Under my system, where we assign 9 match points to any given match, you’d see the following results for the teams Flare uses.

Team Alice ends up with 34.3 match points (rounded) and Team Bob will have 42.75 match points. This is a much more significant difference than Flare’s purely percentage of rounds won calculation. Now, I’ll refer back to my earlier post responding to Vibe about the value of teams in playoffs. Crudely, if the Team Alice loss was to the top team, the rest of their wins are basically worth nothing because once they finally get to grand finals, they’ll just get rolled by the top team. On the other hand, if Team Bob makes it to grand finals, they’ll most likely lose, but are also significantly more likely than Team Alice to win the entire division. While upsets do happen, it almost never the case that these upsets are complete rolls, which is why it’s safe to assume that Team Alice got fisted by the top team in their 0-4 loss.

I wanted to put some math to this, but its not worth it because I’d have to more speculation than I’d like to about what the rest of the match results were. It’s more important to note that Flare example is a monster case that shows the ugliest results of the system, not what it will usually do. Its still the case that dividing matches by rounds won as I suggested would be a fair way to divide points, and the example I posed earlier about teams having perfect wins and losses vs imperfect wins and losses is much more reasonable than his example.

Lastly, I want to comment on your idea about polls. It would certainly be useful to see how important they rank win/loss vs pure rounds, but its important to note that this could cause more problems than it solves. Most people will be relatively one-sided on this issue, meaning that they’ll either vote to almost entirely value match points, or almost entire value rounds won. This will create an average somewhere in the middle, which will make satisfy nobody. This is why I wrote my proposed poll in such a way that clearly tells us whether we prefer to stick it at one end of the win/loss - rounds won spectrum, or whether it should be somewhere in the middle. In essence, your method of finding out where on the spectrum we lie is only valuable to us if we already know that a majority prefer the compromise in the first place. It should not be a replacement for my poll, but it could be a good addition.

Edit: I have been informed that Flare was not referring to me regarding the rigging of polls. The above story is still true and mildly relevant about polls, but apparently there’s something else he was referring to.

I had a lot typed out here, but I realize this isn’t the place, so I’ve chosen to say this instead.

All you’re doing is slandering me, so if you want to argue with me about things unrelated to the match point system, get off this thread and lets have a discussion. I’ll be happy to have it anywhere other than right here, because I am trying to accomplish something here. If anyone wants the text file containing my original response to Micah, I’ll gladly provide it. In much more pleasant words than I used originally, the situation he refers to can be summed up as a misunderstanding between me and Micah. I can be brash, so I see why he thought I meant something other than what I intended.

If you don’t like me, that’s fine, but please recognize that this thread is genuinely making progress so you shouldn’t come here to trample me unless you want to actually dispute the match point system that I’m pushing. I already responded to your first criticism before, feel free to add to it if you want.

@vibeisveryo Ah, okay. I’m more okay with this.

@vibeisveryo I appreciate that you’ve taken a step back to make sure you understand what I’m saying. You’ve given me much more to discuss here, instead of forcing me to repeat myself and be frustrated.

Regarding polls and their purpose

I reject your proposal to move away from polls. I am not “hiding behind polls” in the same way that Thor does not hide behind his hammer. Polls are my primary weapon in this discussion, so to take them away from me is to defeat my entire purpose here. Literally the only reason I started this thread to convince you guys to run a poll. The exact point I have been making is that past polls on the issue have failed in their entirety, so you should run an updated poll on this very poll-able question.

While I agree that coming to a consensus is the best option, polling with majority rule is necessarily a part of the process of coming to consensus. Most people aren’t going to read a word from this thread, but many of them will still have their opinions and vote in polls. If you give them what they asked for, and they decide that they don’t like it, then that’s okay. The idea of a ‘back button’ is an important part of this. If people realize their idea was wrong, then they will change their minds and vote differently on the poll the next time it comes around.

Secondly, the primary reason that pure democracy fails in most real-life situations is that it’s very difficult to poll the general populous in a reasonable manner. Not everyone has easy access to polls, and for those who do, the trouble of doing so might not be worth the value they gain by voting. This is closely connected to the idea that many people think their votes don’t matter, because it’s never the case that a singular vote will be the deciding factor in polls. In our case, however, none of this applies for the following reasons:

1. It is not difficult to poll people in RGL. As I mentioned before, it doesn’t take much effort on the part of the admins to put up polls. You could have already put it up in the time we have been discussing this.

2. It is not difficult for us to respond to polls. You know that every single RGL player has access to the internet, and can easily find your polls. You can put them on the front page of the RGL website and advertise them in the discord. It takes only a few minutes of effort to vote in RGL polls. Excepting special circumstances, anyone who wants to can easily vote in your polls. The only (again, excepting special circumstances) reason that someone would not vote in the polls is that they simply don’t care about the contents of the poll, which means we wouldn’t need them voting anyway.

3. Individual votes actually do matter. When the total voting base is barely a few hundred people, it’s completely reasonable that having a small group change their mind could alter the majority on the poll. Also, the people voting in polls are almost always directly effected by the results of the poll, so it will be easy for them to form opinions and decide what to vote for. At the end of the day, as long you include an “I don’t care” option in the poll, you can be sure that anyone who votes one way on a two way issue is actually speaking their mind.

Regarding the point system and its goals

For this section, keep in mind that I am advocating for potentially different point systems for swiss and round robin. I will be discussing exclusively my thoughts for round robin divisions, because the reasoning is different for each.

I’ll start here. @vibeisveryo, you said this.

I highly value the teams in playoffs truly being the best teams in the div

It would help if I knew what you meant by “best in the div,” because the way I see it, this will be best accomplished using my system. The ultimate goal of the regular season is to produce the most competitive playoff bracket, and so it should be the case that we consider the “best” teams to be the teams with the greatest chance at winning the entire playoff bracket.

Looking at it in this way, a team with 4 perfect wins (no rounds lost) against the bottom 4 teams and 3 perfect losses (no rounds won) against the top 3 teams is significantly less valuable in a playoff bracket than a team with imperfect wins and losses. If you know this team is getting rolled by every playoff team, it doesn’t matter that they’re better than the non-playoff teams. There’s almost no point in letting them into playoffs in the first place. On the other hand, a team that has maximum rounds won on loss against other top teams is much more likely to take that one last round and turn the tide. Even though they might be dropping rounds to worse teams, they’re still more likely to be the entire division winner than the team with only perfect wins and losses. Hence, I see the regular season as the perfect time to look at rounds won, rather than win/loss.

Secondly, to address your desire to reward winning teams no matter what, I will say that winning a match still has its merits, even if you purely care about rounds won. At the end of the day, the prize pools are abysmal, so the only thing anyone gains from winning invite is just glory. If you win the division, everyone knows. If you win a tough match, people will notice and word will get out. “Oh, team so and so beat the top team? Amazing. Maybe they’ll be able to beat them in playoffs when it actually counts, otherwise it was just a fluke”

Glory for a win is rewarding, but if its not in playoffs then its not really worth much. Winning a regular season match doesn’t mean you’d beat the team later in playoffs, which is why a system that encourages consistency is preferred. Consistency is the only factor in the pure rounds system, which makes it the best.

I’ll be happy to share my thoughts about the Swiss system as well, (they’re very similar to my thoughts about RR), but frankly I don’t care about results in any division below invite. I suppose winning advanced has some impact also, as it feeds a team into invite as well, but at the moment advanced is also round robin. As far as I’m concerned, we should let the players in Swiss divisions decide how to score their own match points. That’s why the division filter on the poll will be important.

Final remarks about polls

I find it funny that you mention the issue between Cascade and Lakeside before rotation was introduced. If you didn’t already know this, the reason that rotation was introduced was because I (me, Inquisition, not someone else) identified the problem with preexisting map polls, then wrote a poll (yes, I wrote it. I’ll give some credit also to exa who modified it before it was published). The results of the poll showed exactly what I said they would show, that rotation is highly favored to anything else. Because I wrote it, there was no room for confusion, and because I was on the admin team, it was very easy for me to get the poll through.

Here I am, again, explaining an issue that should be polled. The only problem for me now is that I am no longer an admin, so I have to post on threads to convince you to run polls. I also am unsure what the results of the poll will be, which is why I have been saying this whole time that if majority votes against me I will accept my loss.

If you want a problem fixed in RGL, all you need to do is run a poll (written by me), then the correct answer will be served to you on a platter.

I have read every word of every post on this thread, and will continue to do so to in order to respond properly and convince admins to run the damn poll.

@Mothership In response to your other comment about 6s, I agree that using win/loss first also makes sense. This is logical option, but also just an unpopular one, as per the season 3 and season 7 polls. As you say, round based points (my system) is always going to be the more fair, but additionally, there is no reason to think that HL and 6s need to have the same system. As you mentioned, the 6s season has significantly more matches. They have much longer to determine seeding, whereas round robin HL gives exactly one match between every team to do the same job.

In 6s, essentially any system will get the job done, because more matches gives less variance, resulting in the right teams making playoffs no matter what. Win/loss makes sense here because it’s the simplest option that accomplishes this.

In HL, win/loss also makes sense, but the reason why most people have voted against it is because it makes them feel like taking rounds on a loss is not important at all. Because each team only gets one chance against other teams, you’re more likely to get unexpected matches that skew results. If, for example, a good team loses 3-4 KOTH, reporting it as simply a loss doesn’t show their merits. You have to know how much better teams are compared to each other when you get this small number of matches.

Looks like much has been said since I was last here, so I’ll respond to as much as I can. It’ll be very tedious to read through this whole thing, so I’ll section it off for people who are only interested in certain parts.

Contents:

Section 1 - Response to Flare. TL;DR, Thanks to Flare for an eloquent summary of what I’ve been saying, and for giving analysis to support my point system.

Section 2 - Response to vibe and rants about polls. TL;DR, all evidence shows that it would be worthwhile to poll on my match point system.

Section 3 - Complaints about RGL admin methodology. TL;DR, the admins think they know better than us all, but this is ridiculous. The community is able to handle most of the decision making without them, they just need to run the polls

Section 4 - Response to Mothership. TL;DR, counting halves instead of rounds on KOTH makes no sense. We have the ability to count rounds, so we should.

Section 1

Thanks to @Flare for adding more details to what I have been saying this whole time, and thanks to @vibeisveryo for once again not reading what I have said, and “disagreeing with me” while still claiming things that are in line with what I am saying.

Flare has correctly identified why I am in favor of purely win/loss, and the problems I have pointed out with the polls. Once again, my main priority here is to get a fair poll to happen. I don’t care if I lose the poll, just that my view is given a fair chance, which as Flare explained, it has not yet gotten.

Section 2

As you stated vibe,

Polls consistently favour the match point system that exists, not some mythical one where all rounds in a match are weighed equally, to win-loss. There is absolutely nothing, in this conversation, to be derived from poll results, since they are silent on the topic of discussion: the match point system as you suggest.

This is the heart of the problem. You cannot possibly know what popular opinion is on my pure rounds match point system because you have failed to poll it. That is why I want it polled. Results clearly show that win/loss isn’t preferred, so you have absolutely no reason to believe that a system that doesn’t count wins at all wouldn’t be preferred to the current system. As you stated, I similarly have no compelling reason to think that my system would be preferred either, but until you poll it, you can’t know. There is not “ample justification” for the current system. Only a small group of admins (probably not even admins anymore) who think they know better then everyone else (they don’t) and inconclusive polls from years ago that all agree suck at showing anything.

I’m not “hiding behind polls,” I’ve very clearly stated why my system is better, you’ve seen several people agree with me. I don’t claim to know what the results of the fair poll will be, but my match point system clearly deserves a shot in the polls.

It’s also completely alien for anyone to suggest that this isn’t worth polling, as it is an issue that has been historically decided by polls. We wouldn’t be having this discussion if there weren’t existing polls that I’ve been referencing this entire time. It’s very obviously worth polling because it has been polled before several times, and all those polls did a poor job extracting information.

The real fallacy here is thinking that my opinion doesn’t have support, when it absolutely does. I don’t just think about random things and decide to post them on the forums, I hear complaints from actual RGL players that it doesn’t make sense that the ratios of match points aren’t the same in KOTH and in stopwatch. Just because you don’t have hordes of people ranting on the forums doesn’t mean they won’t agree with me. The 10 people on the forums that have discussed this issue cannot decide the results of the poll that should be taken. None of us know the results until we run the poll. I even wrote it for you, its so simple.

As for actual criticisms of my system, I have addressed every single one as they have come. Most comments replying to me have been unrelated to my system, and are either personal attacks or just plain incorrect claims about what I am stating. If you want to question the match point system I proposed, feel free to do so. Just don’t be surprised when I respond by quoting myself, as I have already explained everything about it. The bigger problem is that you don’t understand what your job is as a league admin. Yes, I do know what your job is. If I was slightly more tolerant of the stupidity of others, I would probably still be an admin at this point, and I would have accomplished significantly more than most admins do, all for the betterment of the league.

Section 3

Like I mentioned before, I don’t blame you for not making noticing what I have pointed out in this thread. People who are not me do not usually take the time to discover hidden abominations introduced years ago by clueless people that happened to be in charge at the time. For what it’s worth, the current match point system served it’s purpose, and the person who made it was certainly very creative. It’s not their fault that we are using it, it’s probably just something they came up with on the spot. If you take any logical look at it though, you’ll realize that the only reason you’re defending it is tradition. If you put 100 people in a room and ask them to come up with a fair system for match points, probably 80 or more will reproduce my system. It’s not complicated, and is objectively the most fair way to divide points. I don’t blame anyone for not thinking of it originally, but I will place blame on you for not realizing that I am completely correct to say that you have no idea whether or not people like it.

If the admin team didn’t want to get criticized so much by the community, it would do them good to ask us what we want more often. Secondly, if you run a poll and implement what the majority wanted, then you can default respond to any complaints with “it seems a majority of people prefer this, and I suggest you try convincing your fellow players if you want a change”. The it puts accountability on the rest of the community to make sure issues are resolved correctly, and if there is reason to believe that there has been a change of opinion, you poll again. There is no reason not to put that responsibility on our shoulders, because TF2 players in RGL are a very dedicated group of people. If we didn’t care about it, we wouldn’t be playing this really old game. This is a niche you don’t see in most league throughout gaming and sports, but for once you actually can count on the people to always solve things themselves. After all, you are just a volunteer, and you have no reason to believe you can do anything better than anyone else.

The most upsetting an admin can ever say is what you said here.

The people are not always right, and even when they are, getting the people’s pulse is often more trouble than it’s worth.

The people are always right, sorry. The success of the league is defined by player satisfaction. If you satisfy more players, you’re doing better. S4rr claims that it’s unfair to let losing teams decide because they may be a majority, but this is also wrong. If the majority of teams are losing teams, then that’s how it is, and it only makes sense to count their rounds fairly…

If you poll, you do what the majority votes for. If you don’t poll, you don’t have a clue what the majority wants. You don’t need to run polls for every single detail, but you should try to run them as much as possible, especially for issues like this that actually effect a large number of people in the league. If you don’t like the results of a poll, firstly, too bad, and secondly, then you need to try harder to convince people to change their minds. If they don’t change their minds, then you have to accept you are in the minority. Polls are not that hard to run, I was there to help run them and it was always worth it.

vibe, I don’t have anything personal against you, I know it’s not your fault that all the admins are like this. They’ve taught you to be like this, I just hope that one of you sees the flaw in this thinking eventually.

Section 4

Moving on…
@Mothership This is still problematic as I discussed before, because we can easily quantify every single round taken, so there is no reason not to. We can always know exactly how many rounds a team wins, so its absurd to just plain ignore some round wins. Of course though… if we really want to know what people think of this, then include it in the poll (!! Remember not to have multiple options without rank choice though !!)