What would you unban in sixes?

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  • @rvn said in What would you unban in sixes?:

    this discussion all has a place, so i’m not inherently opposed to it happening, but i’d just like to remind everyone here that there hasn’t been very much input from high level 6s players in terms of which weapons make sense, save for makkabeus’ comment.

    everyone else should keep their brains active but recognize that you probably don’t really understand 6s well enough to make a judgement on improving the gamemode. some things aren’t purely a question of “fun”.

    also on a personal note, i’ve literally heard 0 experienced 6s players advocate for unbanning the whip so anyone who thinks it’s a good idea should seriously reevaluate their stance.

    I was hoping we’d have more high-level players trying NR Sixes as I think it’s very useful to learn from.

    I’d love to see a couple of seasons of teams try harding at NR Sixes (in the off-season) to really push the boundaries of those ideas and I think we could learn from, between class limits and weapons being unbanned. From the first season of NR Sixies I came into it thinking that it’d be not great, but at least we’d learn from it. Then I realized that many of the things I was worried about didn’t affect it the way I thought it would.

    • I was surprised that most people weren’t bothered by the majority of weapons being allowed (besides the vaccinator)
    • Round times on average were faster than traditional sixes for 5cp maps
    • Running double engie/heavy was able to be countered pretty easily from what I saw (double medic can be good in those situations)
    • Double medic wasn’t didn’t become the must run meta

    We don’t truly know until players actually practice it, play it more, etc… but I thought it was interesting as it definitely ran better and more smoothly than I was expecting.

  • @rvn

    Yeah, it’s a shame none of them are posting.

  • @rvn hi i play invite 6s and talked about every banned weapon in my post. I also advocated for testing the whip because I think it could probably be unbanned.

    also yerb is a pretty high level player as well.

  • From what I have noticed, it becomes more difficult to unban a weapon from a whitelist than it is to ban it.

    When you are banning a weapon, players tend to use subjectivity, such as enjoyment (how annoying is it to play against said weapon). This line of argument tends to be one that is most often vocal and carries it way across discussions when banning X weapon. The fundamental issue is that this is subjective and any one individual’s perception on what is “annoying” or “unfun” to play against varies based on what class they play, personal experiences, and more.

    The argument that said weapon is overpowered and should banned comes up as well. Though, this tends to have its own flaws as there are plenty of weapons that are straight upgrades over its stock counterpart or is deemed overpowered (ubersaw, gunboats, iron bomber, etc.) that remain unbanned.

    On the flip side, with vouching for a weapon to be unbanned, there are not as many vocal players coming out of the woodwork to do so. The arguments may not be as convincing to players that are used to playing with that weapon banned. Furthermore, convincing a subset of the playerbase that a weapon should be unbanned can be a difficult task in a culture where players may not be too receptive to change. An example would be new maps and its immediate preconceived biases. As players begin to play more and more of the map, their opinions of this map can change.

    Ultimately, a metric that should be used for gauging if a weapon should be banned is if it is game breaking and ruins the flow of the game. This tends to be more objective, which is what ideally should be used. If a weapon is found to be game breaking, then it can immediately disrupt a match with zero counterplay, often requiring minimal effort from the person using that weapon. A good example includes the mad milk which allows the scout to win any 1v1 matchup, as well as completely halt a push simply by throwing a milk projectile that regenerates every 20 seconds. Furthermore, “not getting hit” by this often is not a decision unless a pyro manages to always be in the right position to reflect it everytime.

  • @exa

    Yeah, 100% agree.

    I’m totally fine with Short Circuit being Banned, as that thing is monstrously good and invalidates Soldiers, Demos, Jarete, Mad Milk, and Arrows. Not gonna be arguing that one.

    But if it’s something that barely effects the game like the FoS cuz it’s on a bad class to begin with i’d say it’s worth unbanning cuz its not going to hurt anyone,

  • @LegendaryRQA said in What would you unban in sixes?:


    Yeah, 100% agree.

    I’m totally fine with Short Circuit being Banned, as that thing is monstrously good and invalidates Soldiers, Demos, Jarete, Mad Milk, and Arrows. Not gonna be arguing that one.

    But if it’s something that barely effects the game like the FoS cuz it’s on a bad class to begin with i’d say it’s worth unbanning cuz its not going to hurt anyone,

    I think the FoS would be fine if they took away the ability to capture the obj while they were out. The issue with FoS is that it requires a lot of focus on the heavy to deal with them during cart pushes.

    I think they’re an interesting way to counter snipers for heavy to rotate positions, I don’t think they should be allowed to capture obj.

  • my bad there was one person i didn’t recognize in here, but i think the point still stands.


  • I think pretty boys deserves a chance. It’s really not that much better than the stock pistol. Maybe give it a try in a cup or something before the season. I think rgl should take more advantage of their cups to test out the meta.
    Cowmangler and whip should stay banned though. The cowmangler is just a straight upgrade and the charge shots are super OP when sending in sacs, or even just sending in charge shots and not sacing at all. The whip should stay banned because there would be no reason to run anything else, it would just take a strangle hold of soldier melee. I know there isn’t much variation right now with escape plan and the gardener but there is also a cancer factor. Whipping certain classes to mid would just make the game super unfun on a lot of maps.
    Mad milk and jarate are just so game changing and can just create pushes off of a good throw I think it would create too much variation on the game. Not to mention they are both just completely OP.

  • idk why you’re having this discussion here. if you just want to have some discussion on your forums sure but if you go around basing changes based on rgl forum’s advice tftv is gonna hate you even more than they do already. like 50% of the people on rgl forums want to run full time offclasses. didn’t realize that was daf lmfao, honestly kidna dissapointed funny boots sacs never became a thing.

    cowmangler is horrible to play against as medic i have to bait like 3x as harder when going through a choke because if I don’t i just get clipped with a 150 rocket and insta die. sacs suck because i have to watch the scout, soldier and where ever some gremlin cowmangler soldier is gonna peek out and try to laser me. also infinite spam

    idk why you guys want more heavy. who would want to play against a heavy on gully crates or sunshine tetris. fos heavy with an overheal is like 600+ health or something. idk if you guys have tried pushing a last against a team that’s playing highlander but it’s already pretty tedious.

  • @Potch Okay you realize the ammo and the charge shot have a timer right? It’s really not that hard to avoid the choke spam, I never once got fucked in choke specifically by the cow mangler when I was in Open. The only thing OP about the cow mangler is the charge shot sacking and easy forces on bad medics/teams if you hit it. It has 0 difference in choke spam than a regular rocket launcher. Especially if a soldier decides to charge the choke then he has 0 ammo to spam. If you get owned by cowmangler spam you are gonna get owned by any other rl spam, tell your flank to get in or exchange.

    I’m speaking from experience for all the weapons I talked about, Cow Mangler, PBPP, and Rescue Ranger (except whip obv) had 0 negative effects on my experience to play the game. I just think more unlocks can help the game and deserve another test such as in a cup. I would understand not unbanning them for a whole season.

    You say demo is at its weakest point in the game when you can say that about soldiers too lol. Honestly, soldier is more at a weaker point than demo, why do you think etf2l voted for always gunboats rule? Demo legit has a direct upgrade as a primary (if you have no clue the projectile physically is a bigger hitbox and it moves in a more predictable pattern while rolling better than pills). Anyone educated knows the iron bomber isn’t a preference, its an upgrade lol.

    And if you don’t like Specialist classes suck it up, we have been playing the game the same way for over 10 years now it deserves to be different or the game is just going to continue to stagnant. I rather see a heavy to mid than play and counter the same tactics I have been since I was 15.

    Also if you think the market garden is hype I was hype when I saw a soldier get rewarded for good timing and positioning against a bad team with his charge shot. But you seem to be more interested in the one shot kill weapon that you can’t counter if he knows how to do a skip jump.

  • @yreb said in What would you unban in sixes?:

    If you get owned by cowmangler spam you are gonna get owned by any other rl spam, tell your flank to get in or exchange

    Yeah, i was kinda thinking the same thing. If your map awareness is really so terrible that you’re dying to the very slow charging, very load noise making, no faster moving, no wider aoe charge shot you probably should study up on your positioning…

    Also after fiering a charge shot you have literally nothing loaded and can almost justify a push off of that alone…

    Also since they soldier is slowed wile using it he’s a free pick, but nobody is going to be stupid enough to use a charge shot in a position they can be easily killed in.

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  • @LegendaryRQA
    Invite 6s players died to charge shots plenty of times and they generally have the best awareness/movement in the game. Everybody gets hit by spam, its just something that happens. Charge shots are just another type of spam. You can influence how much you get hit by spam (and good players obviously do) but nobody goes through an entire game without taking some.

    I don’t think it is viable to assume players wont ever get hit by charge shots, so its important to know how strong they actually are. They have a small element of risk involved with use (you lose your entire clip and can’t really move while charging) but it was normal for soldiers to safely use them many times in a match. If hit on the edge of their splash radius they do 61+afterburn. This damage scales to 122+afterburn on a direct hit regardless of distance, or 151+afterburn with ramp-up (Minicrits have ramp-up but not fall-off). They were very strong, and if they clipped a target in their splash they generally did enough damage to follow up on for the pick. Even a lone charge shot from a soldier across the map had the capability to one-shot scouts or force a medic. It wasn’t common for sure, but it was far from unheard of.

    In general, charge shots have an imbalanced risk-to-reward ratio. Low-risk high-reward tools will always be favored in competitive games, and they also tend to make for the least interesting gameplay. I don’t think its wise to unban the cow-mangler at all.

  • Things I think are worth unbanning:

    Crit-a-Cola and Flying Guillotine
    I don’t see either weapons making a meaningful impact in sixes. Their main drawback stems from losing your pistol to equip them, which is almost always not worth it.

    Bit controversial, but hear me out. Its main advantages are its damage bonus when fully charged, and ability to penetrate players. Sniper is mostly used to break stalemates where most players on the opposing team tend to be either at max health, or buffed. Having a 173 damage bodyshot still does not allow a sniper to one-hit a soldier or demo. A common argument is that it is a “direct upgrade,” given that most teams can immediately comm a sniper after taking one shot anyway. However there are certainly occasions where a sniper has multiple opportunities to take shots due to how quiet the stock rifle is, especially when masked by nearby spam. The Machina is like having a giant neon sign saying “hi I am a sniper shooting from right here through this angle at this time,” and it completely destroys any chance of being subtle or unnoticed. Also collats are cool and shouldn’t be a reason for banning a weapon IMO.

    Maybe not an immediate unban but I think it’s worth giving these a try and seeing if they really make a difference

    Thanks for coming to my TED talk.

  • @nabla

    I find this compelling enough.

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