What would you unban in sixes?

#831
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  • Currently, sixes has 22 weapons banned in RGL. What, if any, weapons would you argue should be unbanned in this format?

    Blocked weapons for Multiple classes

    • B.A.S.E. Jumper
    • Reserve Shooter

    Blocked weapons for Scout

    • Soda Popper
    • Bonk! Atomic Punch
    • Crit-a-Cola
    • Flying Guillotine
    • Mad Milk
    • Pretty Boy’s Pocket Pistol

    Blocked weapons for Soldier

    • Cow Mangler 5000
    • Disciplinary Action

    Blocked weapons for Heavy

    • Natascha
    • Buffalo Steak Sandvich
    • Fists of Steel

    Blocked weapons for Engineer

    • Rescue Ranger
    • Short Circuit
    • Wrangler

    Blocked weapons for Medic

    • Quick-Fix
    • Vaccinator

    Blocked weapons for Sniper

    • Machina
    • Sydney Sleeper
    • Jarate

    Blocked weapons for Spy

    • Diamondback
  • Disciplinary Action

    That’s it.

    That’s all i care about.

    It would make so man more strategies viable.

  • @LegendaryRQA I think the whip is banned because it made it viable to run a heavy to mid and thats a little wacky.

  • I don’t play 6s, and so my opinion isn’t important. The only one I’d potentially see an argument for is fists of steel.

    That being said, I’ve learned today that the piss rifle is banned in 6s and will use this to continue my agenda of making hl snipers realize that it’s secretly OP when you play against anyone that isn’t high invite.

  • @Cutimus said in What would you unban in sixes?:

    @LegendaryRQA I think the whip is banned because it made it viable to run a heavy to mid and thats a little wacky.

    That is EXCATLY the problem.

    Pyro and Heavy to mid should be viable, but it’s intentionally gutted so people don’t have to think about their mid fights.

  • Looking at this list again i think there’s a few more

    Base Jumper: It’s heavily nerfed and is a shadow of it’s former self. I think it’s worth a try for a season.

    Bonk!: Would be a considerable nerf to ngs on last. Now you wouldn’t have to use an entire Uber to deal with a sentry.

    CM5K: Should also be allowed since it’s basically just a Rocket Launcher that you can’t Kritz or kill sentries with. It would also encourages the use of Gunslinger ngs since that hard counters the CM5K.

    Diamondback: Find me a clip where a spy doesn’t immediately die after getting a backstab, AND the stored crit makes a meaningful difference in the outcome of the game and i might consider it being ban worthy…

    Disciplinary Action: Too lazy to copy paste my other post

    Fists of Steel: Heavy is a garbage class this would make him marginally less garbage. Might be worth running in some circumstances. Still think the Whip is better.

  • CM5K will never be unbanned because its been unbanned twice and everyone cried until it was rebanned both times. Personally I don’t think it’s that much better than stock rockets, but meh not worth fighting.

    I can’t even remember why we banned the diamondback and when that was considered OP and too useful, but never really argued for it to be unbanned. I have some vague memories of reading nerd essays about the item, but c’est la vie.

    Only weapon that I’m honestly eye-ing to maybe unban is the pocket pistol because I don’t think its overpowered nor do I think that it changes scout enough to be banned. Most people I have heard dislike it and refer to it as “the rat pistol” but beyond “its annoying” I haven’t heard any criticism of it recently.

  • pbpp wouldn’t break the game but it is definitely a straight upgrade, much like the iron bomber, so whatever

    im surprised to see the sydney sleeper is actually banned, i guess because you could just piss on a whole combo walking through a choke? but even then, i feel like the stock is just better like it is in hl

    @LegendaryRQA said in What would you unban in sixes?:

    That is EXCATLY the problem.

    Pyro and Heavy to mid should be viable, but it’s intentionally gutted so people don’t have to think about their mid fights.

    6v6 is specifically balanced so that specialist classes can’t be applied generally, and that is best for a competitive class-based experience

    claiming that 6v6 teams don’t think about their mids is ignorant and disrespectful

  • @High-Impact-Dolphin said in What would you unban in sixes?:

    6v6 is specifically balanced so that specialist classes can’t be applied generally,

    And that is a very, VERY, bad thing…

    @High-Impact-Dolphin said in What would you unban in sixes?:

    claiming that 6v6 teams don’t think about their mids is ignorant

    I disagree. Find me a game where someone legit decided to run a Sniper mid to counter the mid heavy they ran 2 rounds in a row and maybe i’ll change my mind.

    @High-Impact-Dolphin said in What would you unban in sixes?:

    and disrespectful

    Yeah, that’s true.

  • @High-Impact-Dolphin said in What would you unban in sixes?:

    claiming that 6v6 teams don’t think about their mids is ignorant and disrespectful

    I hope b4nny sees this bro

  • @Teapot said in What would you unban in sixes?:

    @High-Impact-Dolphin said in What would you unban in sixes?:

    claiming that 6v6 teams don’t think about their mids is ignorant and disrespectful

    I hope b4nny sees this bro

    I’m reasonably sure the vast majority of people are not B4nny. They just want to do their roll out and bomb the med the same way they did the other 10’000 times.

  • free the cow mangler it aint do nothin wrong

  • The Base Jumper’s problem was always rooted in the design concept of the weapon. When the enemy soldiers jump high and slowly float down on your combo you can’t both stare into the sky to stop them while also dealing with players on the ground. In the small amount of playtesting the item recieved it had a crazy high degenerate effects on teamfights. I honestly feel like this weapon deserves its own category for ban reason: Every other soldier secondary promotes more interesting play. This weapon isn’t worth it.

    Mini-crits can do big knockback from far away. Soldier already sucks, please don’t create a reality where soldiers get denied by minicrit hitscan instead of just normal hitscan.

    Soda Popper is probably fine because it kinda sucks with the constant reloads. Most people think the infinity jump is obnoxious so its not a popular opinion to want to unban this weapon.

    Bonk was supposedly playtested and deemed problematic before I became heavily involved in 6s. The only change it has received since then can be circumvented by spamming movement keys perpendicular to the direction you are trying to go (spam a/d while going forward or back to nullify speed loss). I am willing to believe its a problematic weapon in regards to backcaps according to lore, and I also think giving caught out scouts the ability to possibly retreat with it wouldn’t be a good idea.

    Crit-A-Cola should never be allowed into the game while you can circumvent its downsides by ubering the scout. Scouts having on demand access to mini crits during their ubers sounds like hell. Honestly it could still be too good if that wasn’t a thing anyways because of the insane flank playmaking you could get with it.

    I don’t really want to play a version of 6s where all 12 players in the server have free high-damage highly spammable weapons so no thank you to the guillotine.

    Mad Milk is banned in HL because the throwables are too powerful during teamfights. The same concepts apply to 6s except scouts account for 1/3rd of the players instead of 1/9th.

    Pocket pistol can be unbanned. Stock pistol does more damage in a clip so the tradeoff is actually a thing even if people pretend like it doesn’t exist.

    Cow Mangler charge shots are degenerate as fuck. The weapon does not deserve another chance at introduction (would be the 3rd time at least) until that mechanic is changed to be less low-risk high-reward and uninteresting.

    Disciplinary Action gets a bad rep because of whipping offclasses to mid, but most don’t consider that scouts/medics/soldiers benefit from the whip just as much. I doubt it would make a difference in terms of offclass viability because of that, but I do think it would improve the state of soldier by a lot. Worth testing 100%.

    Natascha isn’t even a good weapon. It is just universally considered annoying because of the slowstun mechanic. Unbanning this wouldn’t change a single thing about the game however people would probably bitch a lot.

    Buffalo Steak Sandvich is banned because certain rollout lengths result in the effect ending at the exact second you get to your destination. I don’t think it matters, but the dogma of heavy out of last = bad makes everyone hesitant to touch it.

    Fists of Steel becomes dumber the less players per team. Hard no.

    Rescue Ranger is probably fine. Engineer is honestly a bit too one-dimensional without it in 6s. Buffing last holds is generally a bad thing, but honestly the only time a level 3 gun can impact a last hold heavily is when the attacking team is unaware of its existence (this would also apply with the rescue ranger, but it would let engineers position buildings differently sometimes).

    Short Circuit makes demos in uber spend most of their time waiting out the three spirit bombs. This would probably be too beneficial to last holds to ever be unbanned.

    Wrangler gives sentries 648 hp. Not fun, same concept as above.

    Quick-Fix is probably fine but good luck convincing people to even test it given the PTSD from that one ancient ESEA LAN where it was allowed.

    Vaccinator has similar unban argument merits to the rescue ranger- but it 100% makes last holds too strong. Not viable for unbanning if 5cp remains the main gamemode for 6s.

    Machina is dumb.

    Sydney Sleeper shouldn’t a be a problem but apparently is?

    Jarate can impact teamfights too heavily its kinda OP.

    Diamondback gives spy the ability to backstab an isolated flank player for a free crit when more valuable targets are aware. Also generally just rewards spies more for a mechanic thats already really high value. A spy who backstabs a medic doesn’t also need the ability to do a pills worth of damage to somebody around them.

  • I’m only going to drop my strongest opinions out there for this.

    Pretty Boy’s isn’t some massive difference maker and a scattergun is still far more effective than any pistol.

    Disciplinary Action shouldn’t be allowed for the exact reason that Nabla mentioned. Sure, you can have your heavies, pyros, whatever to mid faster, but, why worry about them than the scouts getting another speed boost they don’t need, getting to point that much faster. I can only imagine the sac plays that can come off of two scouts getting whipped.

    Let’s be perfectly honest, sure you can spend your entire rollout whipping a heavy to mid, or you can spend your rollout making sure the other team isn’t allowed in to the midfight to begin with. PLUS keep in mind that if one team is running Disciplinary Action, the other team really needs to, too, at least to mid.

  • Talking to a lot of soldier mains and wanting to one day play the class itself in a team environment; I am a big fan of Cow Mangler and Disciplinary Action.

    -Cow Mangler
    Every soldier player I know loves this weapon. However, the charge shot and the fact it has no ammo is quite a direct upgrade. I can understand it staying banned, but I believe if we keep the Iron Bomber allowed the soldier should also have a powerful weapon. And I know soldiers who would also stick to stock. I don’t think charge shots are really that big of a deal when I played against it at an Open level, however, if it were to be unbanned for this Invite season I can see the charge being a large change to the game, which I am more than open to seeing and experiencing. It may be considered overpowered, but again, I make the case for the Iron Bomber and it being a direct upgrade to stock. I would love to see TF2 with more intricacies to how it is played, so I would give it a shot for a whole season again.

    -Disciplinary Action
    Again, every soldier player I know loves this weapon. I believe it will add a new depth to the class and make soldier more enjoyable to play. I don’t really see it being overpowered except on mids. I think it would be more OP than the Cow Mangler for sure so probably only wanna test this item in a cup than a whole season.

    Other weapons I believe deserve a chance are Pretty Boy’s Pocket Pistol and the Rescue Ranger, I think they can be OP but deserve a test. I don’t think they would be game-breaking like the rest of the banned unlocks.

    Edit: I also forgot to say, I think the Market Gardener is way more OP than all of these banned weapons. 😛

  • @LegendaryRQA Traditional 6s is balanced around 5CP maps and has been for the majority of time. Specialist classes just don’t have their permanent place in this specific meta.

    I agree that Traditional 6s does deviate from the standard TF2 experience but many people like this Generalist first playstyle as it promotes versatility and focus on skill rather than “gimmick like” playstyles. That should not be an issue. I personally like that we have the option to play this specifically balanced playstyle, as much as we have the option to play Highlander.

    I think what you’re looking for is Prolander but on 5cp- but unfortunately many don’t like playing that because the specialists really tend to slow down the gameplay that a trad 6s playstyle would perfectly fit in. Likewise, with the lack of specialist playstyles, Payload is not popular on 6s. King of the Hill seems to be the only game mode that is the middleground for these playstyles due to the static nature.

    Fun fact: Prolander was originally 6v6 but was decided to be turned to 7v7 during development to allow more variety.

  • @yreb Yeah. Remove the hype to use and watch market gardener in 6v6. But add infinite choke spam rocket launchers and whips that provide new opportunities for heavies to now viably irritate people. You have to remember that “innovating” 6v6 takes it away from why people play it, why people enjoy it. Scout speed, the vow, the iron bomber, are improvements more than changes. Demo is probably at his weakest point in the game’s history and justifiably he should get to use the iron bomber.

    Soldiers have the choice of using the original, which bypasses every other weapon in the entire game’s mechanics of having to deal with right side bias, it’s arguably an upgrade in itself more than a preference, ( similar to what people used to think about the iron bomber, with arguments like if you’re good enough you’ll hit directs with it or stock regardless )

    Specialist classes are annoying. And if they aren’t used as intended people don’t really want to deal with them, this especially goes for the rescue ranger, which would just make pushes have less players-fighting and more spam-the-sentry-so-we-can-start-fighting.

  • I’d unban the pbpp just because the clip size downside makes it do less damage per clip, so it would be a playstyle adjustment for the scout that uses it. This would make the game a bit more interesting in my opinion.

  • @Potch said in What would you unban in sixes?:

    Specialist classes are annoying. And if they aren’t used as intended people don’t really want to deal with them, this especially goes for the rescue ranger, which would just make pushes have less players-fighting and more spam-the-sentry-so-we-can-start-fighting.

    Maybe to you, but I for one would not mind.

  • unban cowmangler please ty

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