RGL PUGs Feedback
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This thread is for any/all RGL PUG feedback, discord & site pugs, general improvements or ideas, or feedback about any aspect of pugs.
If you need PUG help, please open a PUG support ticket in the #support-ticket channel
FAQ:
Q: What’s the difference between Discord PUGs and site PUGs?
A: Discord PUGs are joinable through the #pickup-waiting channel and are ran by a pug runner. Site PUGs are joinable through the PUG website (pugs.tf.plus/pug) and run automatically without human runner intervention. All public PUGs run by RGL are part of the PUG department.Q: On the PUG site, I’m having trouble with the steam join server button on the pug site, or the discord voice channel join button.
A: Between the steam server join button and the discord VC join button is a small console button, clicking it will the copy connect info to your clipboard, allowing you to join the server directly through TF2’s console. If you’re having issues joining the discord voice channel with the link, simply switch to your discord windowQ: How do I report a bug with the PUG site?
A: As the PUG site is currently in its alpha stage, bugs are to be expected. Please report bugs via discord in the #alpha-pug-bugs channel to ensure the dev team is aware of the bug.Q: Something bad is happening in a PUG I’m in! What should I do?
A: If you’re in a Discord PUG contact the runner in charge of your PUG. If you’re in a site PUG ask for help in #alpha-pug-discussions and ping an online PUG admin, or open a PUG support ticket.Q: Something bad happened in a PUG I played in earlier! What should I do?
A: To report another player’s misconduct, please visit the PUG misconduct report form at: https://forums.rgl.gg/topic/74/rgl-discord-pugs-feedbackQ: Do league rules apply to RGL PUGs?
A: Yes, and breaking league rules in PUGs may result in harsher punishments than breaking only PUG rules, as well as possible league-wide punishment. Players will not recieve league-wide punishment for breaking pug rules. Read the PUG rules on discord, or in the rules tab of the pug site. Read League rules at docs.rgl.ggQ: How do I appeal a punishment?
A: VIsit the punishment appeal form at: https://forms.gle/rKNYYUfhJMUL68VDAQ: Why can’t we talk in #pickup-waiting?
A: Players aren’t allowed to talk in pickup-waiting because of incidents involving unmoderated voice channels not in a game and actively comming.Q: Can I view current in-progress PUGs with STV access?
A: The games themselves are our priority, so public access is not available. Having too many people in the STV server can increase the load on our servers. If you’re interested in streaming PUGs to practice casting, DM me in the RGL discord @happypurple -
I think it would be cool to have an accessible STV server link for pugs so we can watch them while in pickup waiting, it would help give players something to do that is community related.
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@BLANK3T said in RGL Discord PUGs Feedback:
I think it would be cool to have an accessible STV server link for pugs so we can watch them while in pickup waiting, it would help give players something to do that is community related.
This is something we’ve discussed internally. My main concern is every STV viewer adds strain to the server, so I want to be sure that we don’t have too many slots. But at the same time, if slots are limited then I feel like people would just be fighting over who can join.
It is however something I can see if there’s firm testing being done as I don’t know the exact number of STV slots you have before there’s a noticeable impact.
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Add some kind of completely meaningless currency (like Sigabucks or something) and let people bet on the winners of PUGs.
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@LegendaryRQA I like this idea
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@LegendaryRQA said in RGL Discord PUGs Feedback:
Add some kind of completely meaningless currency (like Sigabucks or something) and let people bet on the winners of PUGs.
I like the idea of pugbucks gambling however with stuff like this it’s important to think about implantation
A. we do it on the server, which involves new mods and potential conflicts and issues.
A.1. I actually have seen a mod like this in the wild but I can’t find it right now so if anyone wants to dm it to me.B. We do it in discord which would involve another bot, bot access would have to be limited to people in the game, and we’d need a bot that has good admin controls so we can lock who can use it and prevent spam.
Not that I don’t love the idea of silly mods, but it’s important to keep the balance and implementation in mind.
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There’s a Discord bug where sometimes a player can’t hear some (but not necessarily all) other players on their channel, though they in turn can be heard. Because it’s asymmetrical, it can be difficult to realize that it’s affecting you - more than half a pug can fly by before you realize that maybe no one’s hearing your callouts, which kind of breaks the whole point of the game.
The bug seems to be triggered when A) auto-muting on the part of bots and B) potentially also transferring users between channels using bots.
Until Discord fixes this (if ever), the workaround seems to be to limit the use of auto-muting and channel transfers using bots. To that end, I would propose leaving the BLU and RED voice channels unlocked during pugs so that users can manually join from the “Building Game” channel on their own (or leave and come back if the bug still manifests itself).
There are two small drawbacks: Transferring users to their team channels automatically is faster and easier for pug runners, and potentially non-teammates might abuse this to join the channel inappropriately.
However, given A) TF2 relies on effective communication, B) pugs are supposed to be taken seriously from a gameplay perspective, and C) the Discord bug can really ruin that aspect for players unsuspectingly, I think the drawbacks would be worth it.
The first drawback introduces a little inconvenience and maybe 30 seconds of overhead to a setup process that is already 5-10 minutes long anyhow. The second drawback can easily be prevented by making a rule against it (and anyone who would violate such a rule to hamper the experience of pug players probably doesn’t belong here in the first place).
This would also reduce the need for pug runners to manually step in and re-insert someone into the voice channel after having been made aware of the issue, which currently requires two players to engage in an idle state in the middle of an active game.
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@Haytil said in RGL Discord PUGs Feedback:
There’s a Discord bug where sometimes a player can’t hear some (but not necessarily all) other players on their channel, though they in turn can be heard. Because it’s asymmetrical, it can be difficult to realize that it’s affecting you - more than half a pug can fly by before you realize that maybe no one’s hearing your callouts, which kind of breaks the whole point of the game.
The bug seems to be triggered when A) auto-muting on the part of bots and B) potentially also transferring users between channels using bots.
Until Discord fixes this (if ever), the workaround seems to be to limit the use of auto-muting and channel transfers using bots. To that end, I would propose leaving the BLU and RED voice channels unlocked during pugs so that users can manually join from the “Building Game” channel on their own (or leave and come back if the bug still manifests itself).
There are two small drawbacks: Transferring users to their team channels automatically is faster and easier for pug runners, and potentially non-teammates might abuse this to join the channel inappropriately.
However, given A) TF2 relies on effective communication, B) pugs are supposed to be taken seriously from a gameplay perspective, and C) the Discord bug can really ruin that aspect for players unsuspectingly, I think the drawbacks would be worth it.
The first drawback introduces a little inconvenience and maybe 30 seconds of overhead to a setup process that is already 5-10 minutes long anyhow. The second drawback can easily be prevented by making a rule against it (and anyone who would violate such a rule to hamper the experience of pug players probably doesn’t belong here in the first place).
This would also reduce the need for pug runners to manually step in and re-insert someone into the voice channel after having been made aware of the issue, which currently requires two players to engage in an idle state in the middle of an active game.
First, our bots don’t mute anyone. That’s handled by discord perms.
I know discord has some issues that they haven’t fixed (discord mobile crashing on move is a longstanding issue) and this is almost certainly another discord issue.
We can try manual moving, however I’m not doing the following:
Leaving team channels open or removing the mute in pickup waiting. Both of these are counteractive to having a fluid pug progress. -
let people talk in pickup waiting again
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@lay said in RGL Discord PUGs Feedback:
let people talk in pickup waiting again
The short answer to this is no for moderation reasons.
The long answer is that some time ago there was an incident with how people were acting in voice channels in the discord when no staff members were around. RGL has minimum standards of behaviour for the discord and various other spaces. What was happening is this standard wasn’t being maintained. This lead to sitting out being muted.
And at this point I will fully say that pickup waiting should have been muted at the same time as sitting out, and the fact that we didn’t do that created unrealistic expectations for the community, and I’m sorry about that.
More recently after coming off of a hiatus, we reviewed moderation stuff internally, and decided that since pickup waiting is not always moderated (much like sitting out) the mute should be applied.
I understand that people miss talking in pickup waiting. I miss talking in pickup waiting with puggers. But I’ve looked at it from a few different angles and I think this is the most consistent solution we have right now.
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It’d be nice to have a sticky on guidelines for newbies. Like “disable your in-voice chat and only chat through discord,” something like that. Maybe there already is one and I’ve not seen it.
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@darzie maybe i’m lacking some context here, so apologies if that is the case. But as long as the expectation among players is that they can report inappropriate conduct in the vc, is it not fine to just let people talk? there may be a gap in time between the offense and action but local mute exists.
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ire The problem lies in evidence. We need to make sure our own actions are supported by reasonable evidence. Moderators hearing things vs people saying that someone said something are very different. Its very legal like, but it helps prevent un-necessary scrutiny.
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@Psycho said in RGL Discord PUGs Feedback:
It’d be nice to have a sticky on guidelines for newbies. Like “disable your in-voice chat and only chat through discord,” something like that. Maybe there already is one and I’ve not seen it.
This is something that has been discussed before, and there was an early version of this written at one point. If there’s more interest I can look into finishing it. My main concerns are not wanting to overwhelm people with too much information and where exactly to put it. Pinned messages don’t always get checked but that said their probably isn’t harm offering more information if people want it.
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Start some 6s pugs as late night PUGS. Even if I am not a 6s player, i think it can be fun.
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If we could not play bagel that would be great. The map is boring as all hell, and all the cool shit is just not anywhere stuff actually happens
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@narwool said in RGL Discord PUGs Feedback:
Start some 6s pugs as late night PUGS. Even if I am not a 6s player, i think it can be fun.
At this time we’re not hosting trad6s outside of special events.
We’re also not hosting NR6s due to it having no upcoming seasons scheduled.
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@Xenagos said in RGL Discord PUGs Feedback:
If we could not play bagel that would be great. The map is boring as all hell, and all the cool shit is just not anywhere stuff actually happens
Tossed you a discord dm link to the map feedback form (it’s also in the #pug_information channel). Posting here is fine but form makes it much easier for us to look back on. We review exp pug maps periodically.
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#anchor(Why can’t we see our ELO?)
I know a lot of people want to see their pug ELO but to be blunt, it’s not for public consumption. The ELO system is there to guide our balancing, but I wouldn’t say it’s refined where people would enjoy seeing their ELOs-the scale we use can change over time, and we also continuously adjusting ELO as how often one plays pugs may not keep up with the pace at which their skill increases. This can also lead to ELO being controversial, and simply put: if the system is working internally then I’m less concerned with how it scans publicly. I also don’t think that right now, making a palatable public ELO system is a good use of our time, when refining how pugs work is more important. It’s also worth noting our ELO system receives updates in how it functions completely, so keeping the scale updated properly would also be something that we would have to work on, when again I think there’s better uses of time.
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the two highlander pugs i played today were quite fun, and MUCH more fun than the average prolander pug that i add up to in the rgl discord
while i think that highlander is a better mode than prolander in general, i derived a significant portion of my enjoyment from being able to play with other “high level” players, which is also a rarity when looking at the average 7s pug
if rgl continues running hl pugs and the playerbase remains balanced with skilled players in addition to new players, i will continue to add
