Enforcer Ban Discussion

#697
Topic created · 30 Posts · 472 Views
    • +20% damage bonus while disguised.
    • Attacks pierce damage resistance effects and bonuses.
    • 20% slower firing speed.
    • No random critical hits.

    Being able to do exactly what the Ambassador did but with killing sentries is absurd and it’s significantly less detrimental to the class than the Direct Hit is to Soldier. There is no counterplay because it’s hitscan and can be used in the same way the Ambassador was used. The Spy is not put in any danger when using it. Some notable examples of parts of maps where the weapon excels.

    Steel: Both the important spots, B and E. Specifically for E, a Spy can go to the window and just Enforcer the gun down. Add any pressure from any combat class and the gun will die with no effort needed. The Engineer cannot stop this and by the time anyone can get into position to stop it, the gun is dead. This is significantly faster and more efficient than the traditional ways of dealing with the gun on that spot. This forces the Engineer to either run mini’s or put the level 3 in a less efficient spot (ex. Window).

    Upward: Effective on all points, with danger only ever appearing on last.

    Swiftwater: Effective on all points. Less effective on 3rd.

    Vigil: 2nd, 3rd, and 4th. Vigil isn’t nearly as bad as the previously listed maps as it’s more closed in, but it still can be used effectively.

    The weakest class in HL does not need a direct counter to the only weapon keeping it relevant. It also has uses like ignoring backpacks, but that isn’t the main concern imo.

  • Counterpoint: ban the wrangler

  • I think the main saving grace for the wrangler not being deemed too overpowering is the enforcer and keeping them both goes hand-in-hand. Wrangler is easily the most overpowered weapon in the Engineer’s arsenal, so much so that an entire map was revamped with the idea of nerfing its presence. I don’t see why banning one of the only counters (on one of the weakest classes) to an already very much disputed item would fix anything. It would just lead to less counterplay and more stalemate-y games as teams would struggle harder against wrangled guns.

    In the Scorch Ban thread, people have brought up banning the Darwins on sniper, an item that only sees use against the Scorch Shot. The same thing applies to the Enforcer, an item that only sees use on wrangled leveled guns.

  • @BMPD
    That implies that the Enforcer has been run since it got changed. Prior to this season, very few spies actually ran it. In fact, prior to this season, I remember only encountering it twice. The Wrangler is a necessary evil for Payload, you take it out and defense becomes a shitfest. That is the sole reason it’s allowed. And yes, Ashville got changed, but I am not talking about KotH in the slightest. I wouldn’t mind it only being a Payload ban, but that’s never happened before as far as I can recall. Hell, ban the Wrangler on KotH if that’s what it takes. Payload is a different story, though.

  • @Niko-Jims I only see Enforcer on Payload and it’s really only used for spies as a means to pepper down sentries and counters an engineer just pulling out the wrangler and running to his gun as he does when any other class is trying to take it down. The defensive leveled gun on every payload is usually one of the main deterrents for the offensive team trying to push and having a strategy that would focus taking it down, at the cost spy’s better guns for fighting, keeps the game going at a faster pace.

    Albeit annoying for the engineer when it gets used, I think the benefits and applications of the wrangler largely outclass the sole, niche purpose of the Enforcer and having that weapon in play keeps a strategy open for faster-paced games and keeps both defense and offense PL more dynamic.

  • @Niko-Jims said in Enforcer Ban Discussion:

    That implies that the Enforcer has been run since it got changed. Prior to this season, very few spies actually ran it. In fact, prior to this season, I remember only encountering it twice.

    i will not lie, i don’t think anyone outside of the highest-level players even knew that the resistance-piercing worked on the wrangler, i know i’ve had to explain it to basically everyone i play with

    This forces the Engineer to either run mini’s or put the level 3 in a less efficient spot (ex. Window).

    doesn’t this just make it an inherently less efficient spot if it can be made obsolete? isn’t it in theory healthier for the stopwatch engineer meta to not stagnate into sets of the “most efficient” spots? (although rereading this, i think it already has)

    on pl, the spy standing very far away to shoot is either in a sniper sightline and/or can be chased down by your scout, and the shots can be blocked by your pyro who can mostly rest easy knowing the spy is occupied

    there’s plenty of counterplay to the enforcer, which is only ever run to counter ONE unlock

    The weakest class in HL does not need a direct counter to the only weapon keeping it relevant.

    i think pyro is a little worse but that’s not really what matters

    this line makes it sound as though you don’t want to play engineer as much as you want to have impact using the wrangler, which i guess makes sense considering the class is not good, but it’s important to realize that specialists will never and should never be as effective as the generalists because thats what makes highlander interesting

    fact of the matter is that engineer would still serve some purpose without the wrangler at all, and advocating for a ban against THE ONLY direct counter to it, which itself has counterplay, seems a little silly to me

  • Did this guy just call engineer the weakest class without a shred of irony

    Ban the wrangler btw, idgaf about the enforcer afterwards, don’t think anyone else would either.

  • @BMPD said in Enforcer Ban Discussion:

    @Niko-Jims I only see Enforcer on Payload and it’s really only used for spies as a means to pepper down sentries and counters an engineer just pulling out the wrangler and running to his gun as he does when any other class is trying to take it down. The defensive leveled gun on every payload is usually one of the main deterrents for the offensive team trying to push and having a strategy that would focus taking it down, at the cost spy’s better guns for fighting, keeps the game going at a faster pace.

    I do not think the 20% slower firing speed is enough of a deterrent. If the gun was actual ass at killing things (ex. Pompson) I would reconsider but it’s not. It’s a revolver that shoots 20% slower.

    @High-Impact-Dolphin said in Enforcer Ban Discussion:

    @Niko-Jims said in Enforcer Ban Discussion:

    That implies that the Enforcer has been run since it got changed. Prior to this season, very few spies actually ran it. In fact, prior to this season, I remember only encountering it twice.

    i will not lie, i don’t think anyone outside of the highest-level players even knew that the resistance-piercing worked on the wrangler, i know i’ve had to explain it to basically everyone i play with

    Yes, it’s not odd in this community to step over strong weapons. No one used the Sandman and Soda Popper for years before the general consensus was made for them.

    This forces the Engineer to either run mini’s or put the level 3 in a less efficient spot (ex. Window).

    doesn’t this just make it an inherently less efficient spot if it can be made obsolete? isn’t it in theory healthier for the stopwatch engineer meta to not stagnate into sets of the “most efficient” spots? (although rereading this, i think it already has)

    Jail is and always has been considered the most efficient spot on Steel E. Even with it being counterable with sacs and proper pressure, it has been used for years upon years. And while in theory that may seem true, the issue is that nothing else has changed. Engineer didn’t get buffed/nerfed, no new tools, nothing has changed at all (same maps etc.), people just realized that the Enforcer is actually good. Actual meta change was when the RR got nerfed and Engineers started running Shotguns for the first time since the RR was introduced. All this will do is most likely make RR’s meta again instead of being an option. If anything it’s a regression. Barely any, if any, gun spots will change, because every spot already had this issue, it’s just that the Revolver didn’t do enough damage to make it relevant outside of niche opportunities.

    on pl, the spy standing very far away to shoot is either in a sniper sightline and/or can be chased down by your scout, and the shots can be blocked by your pyro who can mostly rest easy knowing the spy is occupied

    there’s plenty of counterplay to the enforcer, which is only ever run to counter ONE unlock

    This is not true, there are spots where the Spy can get away scot free. The issue with the Scout theory is that it won’t always be a viable option. Consider Swiftwater 2nd. Spy decloaks by spawn and Enforcers your gun. Even if your Scout could get there in time, you are removing the Scout from the tunnel, which would most likely result in losing tunnel, all to stop a spy who most likely has already killed your gun. If your Pyro goes to body block, the enemy team enters upper for practically free. I suppose you could have your Heavy body block, but that still doesn’t change the fact that either you drop tunnel or hope your Sniper can pick him off.

    The weakest class in HL does not need a direct counter to the only weapon keeping it relevant.

    i think pyro is a little worse but that’s not really what matters

    this line makes it sound as though you don’t want to play engineer as much as you want to have impact using the wrangler, which i guess makes sense considering the class is not good, but it’s important to realize that specialists will never and should never be as effective as the generalists because thats what makes highlander interesting

    I made this topic because I want to play Engineer and enjoy myself. The Enforcer is incredibly good at fucking up sentries and being able to do such practically wherever you want does not sound fun or intuitive at all for Engineers, nor does it seem healthy for the meta.

    fact of the matter is that engineer would still serve some purpose without the wrangler at all, and advocating for a ban against THE ONLY direct counter to it, which itself has counterplay, seems a little silly to me

    Obviously, but that doesn’t mean it’s healthy for the game. No wrangler has been tried by EU’s and the general consensus was that Payload Defense was a joke because of it. For years people have been dealing with PL defense sentries just fine, I’m not sure why it’s fine that a weapon will now just effortlessly do the job because people remembered it exists, which is a reoccurring theme in this gamemode.

    I’m normally fine with meta changes if they are for the betterment of the game. I ended up being happy with the RR nerf because it made shotguns viable again. It was a fresh breath of air for me. I’ve been playing Engineer for many many years, I have experienced almost every single meta change that has happened in the past 8 years. I do not see a bright future for this new meta if this season has taught me anything. Maybe I’m wrong, but I feel like I’m not.

  • @Niko-Jims said in Enforcer Ban Discussion:

    I do not think the 20% slower firing speed is enough of a deterrent. If the gun was actual ass at killing things (ex. Pompson) I would reconsider but it’s not. It’s a revolver that shoots 20% slower.

    i think it’s worth noting that 20% reduction in dps is the same penalty the l’etranger has, and while im no spy expert, i believe that weapon is also considered somewhat niche

    This is not true, there are spots where the Spy can get away scot free. The issue with the Scout theory is that it won’t always be a viable option. Consider Swiftwater 2nd. Spy decloaks by spawn and Enforcers your gun. Even if your Scout could get there in time, you are removing the Scout from the tunnel, which would most likely result in losing tunnel, all to stop a spy who most likely has already killed your gun. If your Pyro goes to body block, the enemy team enters upper for practically free. I suppose you could have your Heavy body block, but that still doesn’t change the fact that either you drop tunnel or hope your Sniper can pick him off.

    is this something that’s real and being taken full advantage of right now, or are you theorycrafting? while i won’t argue the theoretical feasibility of this strategy, is it one that people are already successfully using? i know that the enforcer counterplay strategies i brought up are ones that my team and i have already successfully used. i feel like banning on theorycraft is questionable at best, which is why i ask

  • The L’etranger is niche now because it’s used in tandem with the Dead Ringer, which isn’t run nearly as much as it used to be run. There’s very little reason to use it otherwise.

    @High-Impact-Dolphin said in [Enforcer Ban Discussion]

    is this something that’s real and being taken full advantage of right now, or are you theorycrafting? while i won’t argue the theoretical feasibility of this strategy, is it one that people are already successfully using? i know that the enforcer counterplay strategies i brought up are ones that my team and i have already successfully used. i feel like banning on theorycraft is questionable at best, which is why i ask

    https://youtu.be/NsDCAAUnOHQ?t=3933

  • @Niko-Jims that clip definitely shows how safe the spy can be on swift second while dispatching a gun, but i dont think it proves that the enforcer has no counterplay. you can see that syath was just seconds away from killing micahlele, who had to spend all six bullets to kill the gun. had a single shot been blocked or the gun been repaired, syath would have killed micahlele before he had time to finish off the sentry. additionally, this clip shows that red doesn’t immediately lose tunnel if scout leaves to deny spy, as syath actually gets back in time to fight side tunnel with his team (who end up holding the point).

    also, boar can snipe him from where he’s standing

    i think the enforcer on stopwatch is just another aspect of spy that must be played around, in addition to spychecking during spy time, teams simply have to be aware of it to stop him

  • @High-Impact-Dolphin I think the point of that clip is showing how easy it is for spy to get behind (which is apart of his inherent toolset) and remove the gun from existence at anytime.

    While I have thankfully not had to play against high leveled spies running enforcer full time on payload much, It is very easy for the spy to get into a position to spam your gun out before you can figure out where he is. I have had times where a spy at our spawn on upward last would just spam out my gun in pub spot. Or he would sit in lower and spam it out and I would be completely useless in being able to do anything to stop it.

    This is essentially the old amby issue, but with sentries and without needing to aim.

    Luckily when I played in advanced this season I didn’t have to deal with it too much, however as more lower div spies pick up the strategies, this issue will just get even worse as its easy to pull off and you have to plan around countering it. Imagine having to dedicate a player on your team to prevent a spy from shooting your sentry?

  • @Mothership said in Enforcer Ban Discussion:

    I think the point of that clip is showing how easy it is for spy to get behind
    It is very easy for the spy
    I would be completely useless in being able to do anything to stop it.

    i really can’t understand this justification, the concept of something being very easy to exploit for a lot of impact is the exact way the wrangler works. the same way that the spy needs to do nothing but stand far away and shoot to pressure a gun, the engineer needs only to press 2 to disable any single player from killing his gun. i can see your argument applied DIRECTLY to the wrangler, even…

    It is very easy for the engineer to tank a gun with 66% resistance.
    [any combat class] would be completely useless in being able to do anything to stop it without teamwork.

    Imagine having to dedicate a player on your team to prevent a spy from shooting your sentry?

    imagine having to dedicate a player on your team to preventing a spy from sapping your sentry 😁

    again, i really can’t understand this perspective - if a gun is valuable enough to be worth keeping alive, isn’t requiring a healthy bit of teamwork to beat it a good thing?

    i think that an angle of something being “too easy” to execute is not applicable when it’s used against a counter to an unlock that has more impact with far more exploitability

  • @High-Impact-Dolphin There is a clear difference between the two.

    Sapper vs Enforcer.

    A spy needs to get close to the sentry to be able to sap it, and by doing so, puts them in danger of getting caught or dying immediately after the sap. The engineer also has the ability to remove the sapper assuming no teamwork. The ability to delete a sentry gun at range with little effort, teamplay, and spy’s inherent ability to immediately get away is way better than a sapper.

    The enforcer allows the spy to destroy the gun alone with no teamwork and with no immediate way to counter or prevent it without baiting your whole team.

    Wrangler vs Sapper

    Wrangled sentries are so central to playing payload defense, you really cant equate the two as equal. etf2l already tried banning the wrangler, and playing defense was terrible. The enforcer will just pressure engineers as @Niko-Jims stated to:

    …All this will do is most likely make RR’s meta again instead of being an option. If anything it’s a regression. Barely any, if any, gun spots will change, because every spot already had this issue, it’s just that the Revolver didn’t do enough damage to make it relevant outside of niche opportunities

    If it gets bad enough, most engineers should just start running shotgun and gunslinger. Since that is what will happen if the wrangler gets banned anyways.

    Now do I think that allowing the enforcer will result in a sudo wrangler ban? I dont. I honestly am interested to see what a season would look like where the enforcer was fully abused just to prove the point.

    Wrangler is OP

    At the end of the day, I think the argument being made is less about the enforcer and more about how the wrangler plays out in HL. Yes the Wrangler is OP. Its easy to use, allows you to tripe the health of your sentry for free with minimal risk as long as you are really smart, and can do great area denial at range. However the engineer without the wrangler would be bad and basically just dedicated to full time protecting the sniper against spies/flanks. Which was already a valid strategy before spies discovered the enforcer existed.

    Either way, it will be interesting to see how things play out. I’m not playing engineer next season anyways so this wont likely directly affect me beyond telling my mentees “nope, nothing you can do about that spy that just killed your gun”

  • Whats wrong with the current meta, idk if its just me but ever time a spy tried goin enforcer on me it just never works cause you can just shoot the spy or just body block it but idk ( even if the spy does that jumping strat you can still body block it and shoot em)

  • first u take away my ambi privileges now you tryna take away my enforcer privileges

    tbf when using the enforcer it forces the engie to change how he is set up (my experience in using it) if i spam someone and 50% of the time they move gun just cause its a hitscan class shooting their gun and i get that done and my time playing against it in adv when i was on engie i just get a buff and body block my gun from the bullet if it is low and tell someone to take care of the spy behind for a quick second (not the best choice but idrc)

    vs sapping it where in a situation I am sapping the gun (not sure about invite play but my experience using it in adv) i can sap then unload 6 revolver shots into the gun normally getting it down alone or with slight coordinating with my team

    spy i already feel is the weakest class to begin with engie being maybe 2nd but them both having a weapon of power against each other (IE wrangler vs enforcer, SS vs Darwins ect) would have a big effect on how people play and people in comp dont play comp the same way they did 2-3 years ago my opinion may differ but this my take on it (only applies to PL) and there is a whole nother argument about the wrangler i wont get into that weapon is kinda broken no offense

  • @Mothership said in Enforcer Ban Discussion:

    At the end of the day, I think the argument being made is less about the enforcer and more about how the wrangler plays out in HL. Yes the Wrangler is OP. Its easy to use, allows you to tripe the health of your sentry for free with minimal risk as long as you are really smart, and can do great area denial at range. However the engineer without the wrangler would be bad and basically just dedicated to full time protecting the sniper against spies/flanks. Which was already a valid strategy before spies discovered the enforcer existed.

    this sounds familiar…

  • @supreme-toad said in Enforcer Ban Discussion:

    @Mothership said in Enforcer Ban Discussion:

    At the end of the day, I think the argument being made is less about the enforcer and more about how the wrangler plays out in HL. Yes the Wrangler is OP. Its easy to use, allows you to tripe the health of your sentry for free with minimal risk as long as you are really smart, and can do great area denial at range. However the engineer without the wrangler would be bad and basically just dedicated to full time protecting the sniper against spies/flanks. Which was already a valid strategy before spies discovered the enforcer existed.

    this sounds familiar…

    Minus the part where pyro without the scorch shot can still do the same things at a cost of increased mechanical involvement (oh no, playing the game! (outside of unintuitive things such as long distance stun and bouncing)), while the engineer can do things that he otherwise entirely cannot with the wrangler, such as long ranged manual targeting. Not to mention flat out increased health/resistance, which positively defines the meta on something such as payload defense, providing much needed pace stabilization.
    I’d advise for you to pay attention to the differences in impact various secondaries have, and avoid trying to piggyback off of the success of non relevant but solid arguments.

    Engineer without the wrangler is rather helpless, and would completely be forced to do certain roles. Pyro without scorch shot means that you have to actually decide upon and commit to a role with a secondary, while other secondaries allow for you to do the same things, just not all at once. This dynamic is not comparable to the wrangler situation.

    That being said, I think that future discussion on this matter; as well as possibly this comment and the one preceding it should be moved to the scorch shot thread.

    TLDR: Focus on your own arguments and defend the weapon off of it’s and your own merit, not unrelevant situations involving other weapons

    edit: it has come to my attention that this may have been a joke, if so I am a fool

  • inb4 all items on spy get banned for making spy work in comp

  • @Mothership said in Enforcer Ban Discussion:

    However the engineer without the wrangler would be bad

    @Bliztank said in Enforcer Ban Discussion:

    Engineer without the wrangler is rather helpless

    this logic is so backwards its actually quite frightening

    this dependence on an item that promotes borderline vegetative state gameplay has become so widespread amongst engineer players over the past few years that its becoming genuinely concerning

    ban the wrangler and watch engineer players flouder around on koth with sub 100 dpm because they never had to learn how to play koth correctly

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