[Forked] Scorch Shot Ban Discussion#685
While we’re on the topic of low risk high reward weapons lets ban the scorch shot too please
While we’re on the topic of low risk high reward weapons lets ban the scorch shot too please
I think the Scorch Shot isn’t as oppressive as the Flying Guillotine because you can argue that the shotgun / detonator are sidegrades and possibly even better. With the Flying Guillotine you’re basically forced to use if it the other scout is.
The scorch shot splash is the size of the direct hit. I don’t care for the weapon but if scorch is banned then the det should be as well and the Darwin’s danger shield since the det is the same as the scorch but you jump a bit higher and the Darwin’s fire counter play would be too much since the spam fire weapons are gone and no longer needed.
You are confusing the flare gun which can consistently one shot light classes to the scorch shot that can’t. Overall this deserves a thread on its own.
I think going from banning scorch to banning det is a bit too much of a leap. The detonator gives control and actual specialized play compared to the scorch, for the price of actual mechanical investment and timing, even if not all that difficult in the long term.
The scorch allows for you to pick up and use it, with a stupid amount of value and artificial versatility for the price of very little investment. A lot of pyros end up using scorch shot as somewhat of a crutch without really developing their own playstyle and become overly reliant on spamming it.
To be able to effectively spam the detonator on a similar level to the scorch, a certain amount of time investment is required to learn how to properly time it’s detonations across range and for each sort of task you’d have in mind with it. Before this point, you would see a lot more inefficiencies and misplays, such as peaking sightlines for longer in the moment to attempt to properly detonate it.
Det in general is a lot more punishing than scorch if improperly used, while also not having an oppressive stun mechanic, and also provides some actually interesting options for play on the class.
I do not think detonator should be banned, and I think the scorch promotes unintuitive play that is neither fun to play, nor to use. Not only this, but it promotes poor playstyles, and I would also reason it also hurts the long term growth of the class.
Other secondaries such as the det/shotty/flare etc promote more specialized sorts of playstyles and mechanics outside of just spam.
For instance, with the detonator you may see controlled spam and timed midair detonations, such as around the cascade rocks to hit people, and are rewarded for smartly using it while not putting yourself in as much risk. Alternatively to this, you can much more aggressively and actively position yourself, even with something such as a bomb.
Shotgun allows for you to deny more efficiently, and promotes a generally protective sort of play, while also being perfectly suitable for a lot of combat engagements.
Flare gun promotes high single target focus and combo plays. While somewhat oppressive, I do not think it is nearly as much of a menace as the scorch is.
Scorch promotes mindless spam, stunning, and in general results in a lack of commitment to and specialization in particular pyro mechanics/roles.
I think the scorch is a bit more pressing than something like flare/det in terms of getting banned, as I believe it trickles into a pyro that’s plagued pyro as a whole for a bit now. This problem I would say, is that there tends to be a lot of a lack of specialization and intuitive play by newer pyros and a lot of pyros as a whole; as they tend to just parrot what they’re told to do by the community and mentors, and tend not to be very proficient at it. By having a secondary such as scorch that a lot of newer pyros can cling to and get a lot of value out of as a crutch, one that also does not intuitively teach good mechanics, the problem is further amplified.
In short, while the detonator can do some things that the scorch can not and vice versa, the detonator requires actual investment to be able to realize it. It is not nearly as oppressive, as there are more options to counterplay against it than oh hey I’m stunned I guess I’ll die now, and is not nearly as broadly problematic. It provides a lot of options, but those options require vision to utilize, and results in very intuitive play, atleast when compared with the scorch. You get a higher potential as a result of being able to control the det, while having a higher floor as well. Is it unfair? Possibly, but scorch is entirely in a different league, and you can argue for days about other weapons that are unfair if you put time into becoming proficient at them.
also yeah I think this tangent should go to a new thread
Forked from the Guillotine ban discussion. you can return to it here: https://forums.rgl.gg/topic/676/ban-the-flying-guillotine/7
As someone who only spams scorch shot in pugs when I play pyro, I think its funny stopping a scout’s or bomber’s momentum with just one direct and watch him go from full to 0
As a scout player, I think its not very funny when I lose all my momentum and get popped up to a scorch shot and watch my life go from full to 0
Anyways, the scorch shot being able to spam splash, long-range spy check places a pyro couldn’t normally, pop-up/stun on direct with extra damage, stop all momentum with air directs, flare jump, and clear stickies is such an overpowered secondary where if you’re not using it you’re really just being a detriment to your own team. The only reason I’ve really heard most pyros not using it is because they have some sort of pride about them where they know it’s a low-skill/high-reward weapon and they want to use something more mechanically challenging.
I know some scorch shot defenders would call it a side-grade to the other flares and shotty, but only the scorch shot gives you so much utility and passive damage at the cost of LESS mechanics to its other options, and it has no counterpart that can offer more.
please consider banning darwins and cozy before banning unlocks from one of the worst classes in the game
@supreme-toad While the class is bad, I think it’s up to the player to learn to do the most they can despite it. I don’t think that the scorch shot teaches players good mechanics that they may be able to use in compensation for the class’s state. This loops back around, and results in even more lackluster performance and results for players learning the class.
That being said, if the scorch is banned, I think the darwin’s should be too.
scorch shot should be banned. but im really curious why the fuck anyone thinks the darwins should be banned if the scorch shot is? does anybody really think that item is used for anything other than the sole purpose of negating the scorch shot? i for one would never use the darwins if the scorch shot was banned
I think if the scorch is removed, the main argument for keeping the darwins is also removed.
Speaking from personal experience versus you with the detonator, I only ever recall you running darwins, while I’ve never touched the scorch shot over the course of the season, let alone versus your team.
I suppose that it may be more attributable to you running darwins by default and not switching off of it due to the frequency of the scorch shot, but it has the same effect of negation nonetheless.
And I don’t feel like that sort of negation is fair in response to anything but the scorch shot. Spam from things such as the detonator or flare gun fundamentally require more skill than from the scorch, and there should be a reward on the pyros part; or a punishment on the sniper/enemy team’s part.
Ok but I don’t see how the Darwin’s would be unfair to the point of banning it. I argue that if the scorch gets banned, the smg and cozy camper are far better secondaries than the darwin’s, so there is no point in banning it if it won’t be as strong of a weapon. It’s like if the wrangler and the enforcer were both banned together - without the wrangler, the enforcer doesn’t really have a niche in the metagame, similar to how without the scorch shot, the darwin’s doesn’t have a niche.
You raise a fair point, I digress on the darwins thing.
Sniper shouldn’t have any secondary unlocks but that should also be another thread lol
sounds like we may be in for some forkception
@supreme-toad you abuse the scorch shot the most out of any pyro I’ve ever seen
Scorch is the single most unfun weapon to play against that is currently unbanned, I would like to also allow fartz to realize everything he just said is factually incorrect
The scorch shot splash is the size of the direct hit…
You are confusing the flare gun which can consistently one shot light classes to the scorch shot that can’t.
Scorch does 20 damage upon first hitting someone, on minicrit it does 26, often you ALWAYS get minicrit due to the way the projectile works 20 + 26 + full damage after burn that being 4 per tick as all flare guns give full after burn of 60 ticks, it takes 20 ticks of damage after getting hit to die, you dont even need to light them on fire prior, a properly landed scorch shot on a light class at full health without a health kit around them is a dead player, that is stupid. Not to mention that mini crit afterburn both DOES MORE DAMAGE PER TICK AND LASTS LONGER.
but if scorch is banned then the det should be as well and the Darwin’s danger shield since the det is the same as the scorch but you jump a bit higher
I could literally steal a lemur from my zoos local exhibit and it could use the scorch shot, detentor requires that you at least be conscious as it doesn’t have contact splash damage and the projectile disappears after hitting something, there are more reasons to use the det, its better at hitting people behind walls if you time it correctly, and better for mobility, scorch is good because its stupidly easy to use and do well with, and it destroyes stickies. These two weapons have similar functions while serving different purposes. Thats like saying we should ban black box on soldier cause the healing, then jumping to banning the conch, it makes no sense.
Ban this weapon, please.
I learned Something today, I was always under the impression it was the same splash as the DH.
The scorch shot discussion has always been a little funny to think about because there’s really nothing overpowered about the weapon besides it being annoying to people. The entire class would have been banned years ago if people screeching “annoying” had ever been an effective argument. Especially considering axtinguisher and puff and sting meta ran the table for years.
Let’s think about this. Pyro is already the weakest class in the game, made significantly more so by the fact the dm potential of the class was nerfed significantly by the pyro update/degreaser nerf a few years back. I want to imagine that people have gone so long without feeling the impact of pyro’s afterburn that the fact that they’re now on fire a bit more often is that agonizingly annoying to them that they’re screeching more now than they ever did about being stun-locked in old airblast.
Pyro has been downgraded so significantly over the years that its role has dwindled to a mere backline watchdog, and if anything the sc meta is the first move in a long while to improve an otherwise extremely range limited class’ utility to further aid the team. It doesn’t have to be a full time weapon, and this was the first season I branched out from my typical lineup to even experiment with its use on most maps. But what I found is that there are many circumstances where you can assist in denials, albeit small ones, on maps where pyro otherwise has a limited role. This can be on sniper, or flank, or doing the final damage in a koth midfight where you’d otherwise have no role but to chill in the back. People are complaining about what it detracts from the game, which REALLY isn’t much especially if your considering its pyro and it doesn’t begin to scratch the other weapons that are arguably way more (actually) OP/banned… but not many stop to consider what it brings to a team on an otherwise shit class. Not to mention, the scorch/det are direct downgrades in close range combat to the shotty/flare among others, which is significant when you consider the degreaser already has the lowest dps of any primary weapon and every second matters in trying to protect a combo at range. Not to mention, it one of very few weapons that can contest snipers at range, if anything else but to force them on to darwins. Imagine wanting to ban one of a few counters to sniper (lol) while vouching how much shit like the wrangler adds to the game. The weapon is a deterrent, and with the opposing pyro/healthpacks around it usually doesn’t come into significant play that often outside of hassling at range. I main shotgun so honestly I’ll probably just go back to that more often regardless of a ban, I just think the fact that its even up for discussion is stupid as hell because there are genuinely few reasons for a ban besides people bitching about minor inconvenience from a class that should otherwise be useless
Imagine wanting to ban one of a few counters to sniper
I agree that there’s probably an issue here where people have different ideas about what a whitelist’s Purpose should be, and that’s a discussion in and of itself, but if y’all will forgive a baby player venturing to have an opinion… it seems that this bit is also perhaps worth highlighting as a potential consideration?