the same thread, new season, BUT WITH A TWIST
#2218-
some may say this is too early to say but i honestly get the feeling like nothing will change so better to start too early than to get cucked out of being the guy to make this post.
once again, as the same post has been made multiple seasons in a row, the division below invite NEEDS to be 8 team round robin. It doesn’t matter if you add challenger back and make advanced the same shit it has been. All of the points about main getting filled with teams too strong for it are wholly and completely irrelevant in a discussion about whether or not the division below invite should be 8 team RR or not. that belongs in a discussion about whether you need to add a division or not, and is just completely besides the point here. the div below invite should be getting people ready for invite, and its just not happening here with teams just being forced into the same shitty format that shouldnt be a thing in this division size and skill level.
tell you what, this is how passionate i am about this. @WiLLmaTiC I am officially challenging you to a boxing match/fight or whatever (ive never been in a fight so fuck if i know how it works), best of 3, winner gets to decide what format and # of teams there are in the division below invite. I know we both live in the LA area cause ya went to LAN (and I almost did) so you don’t even have to go that far. Tell you what, I’ll make the deal sweeter. If you win, I’ll also give you $300 with my broke college student ass. I’m only like 5’8 and 230 pounds so you probably got a good chance here. just DM me on discord and we can talk about this. I am being 1000% unironic here, no joke. I’m here in LA till May 11th big boy, lets make this happen.
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You know, I could do all of the math showing that swiss advanced is dogshit, but last time I got ghosted by the hl staff list so uhh not putting that amount of effort again.
Nothing personal to Willmatic, my few experiences with him have been pleasant but, please resign; you being a head admin to hl has only caused issues and chaos within the community, and the rest of your staff are either too afraid to say it so they don’t lose their position or suck your decisions off to the end so yeah.
Step. Down. -
Previous Threads
Jan 26th 2022: Round Robin Advanced? by @minty
Jan 6th 2022: Regarding Advanced for this upcoming season by @Constantly
Nov 6th 2021: S10 Analysis: Why Swiss shouldn’t be used next season by @BBL
Sep 17th 2021: Advanced is a joke by @cayorne
These threads are here as a reference to previous discussions concerning Advanced and Swiss/RR.
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Why on end of season polls do we get asked how our division admins did and not how the head admin of the format did?
Also this is a call to all advanced players to please fill out the end of season survey, last season only like 20 people filled it out and I know way more than that many people had a problem with how big the div was.
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just play prolander ez dubs. In pl we have 6 team invite, 6 team advanced, both round robin.
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I suggest all RGL admins participate in quarterly boxing matches to keep their titles. Lan is Exa vs the world for RGL ownership.
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no one’s mentioned it yet, but adv started with 13 teams and now only has 9 (not counting dogb)>
the 9th ranked team has 5 points 0 wins, with half of the points from a bye week.
the three dead teams only won one match total before folding.
dogb got all their wins from main if i remember right.im trying to say that adv did not need to be this large to accommodate a excess of skilled teams (ie there arent enough skilled teams), and also point out that by making the div larger, teams are forming up or being dragged up then dying.
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alright guys, 5 threads deep. that means 8 teams + 5 threads complaining about it = 13 team advanced next season
when this happens I WILL be cacklingin all seriousness, just make it fucking round robin. It’s not hard and it makes the division healthier
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Advanced being RR gets teams and players ready to move up to invite and it gets main teams ready to play at a high level. It’s really a no brainer.
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willmatic sux so he has to make his own teams and make adv big so he can play
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There are a few things that, since this thread exists, I think it’d be worthwhile to consider. I don’t want y’all to view this as personal opposition from me, because it’s not - but just things that I think would be valuable to the discussion. Because even if round-robin Advanced may be a no-brainer, it still opens up several questions about what happens next.
I think everyone should, in order to come to a community consensus, drop their thoughts on these considerations below
What happens to the div below?
What we had for a long time, with a smaller Advanced, is that Main was essentially two divs in one div. There was high main, and then there was low main. Low main was basically teams who were facing trial by fire to improve or die; they were just top IM teams at heart, looking to break out of “elo hell.”
I don’t think this is a problem at all. I think Main should be the filter div; any teams higher than it should have demonstrated their competence.
But some people disagree. I know people want the reintroduction of Challenger. I think the terminology is confusing that way, since when we had AM > IM > Main > Adv > Chal > Invite, it was in fact Main that was being split into Adv and Main, and Chal just became the new Advanced. I think it would make more sense, if the div below was split, to be like AM > IM > Main-2 > Main-1 > Adv > Invite.
What do you guys think?
What happens if teams die?
Do you just keep moving teams up from Main? Teams have died from being moved up to Adv or Invite before; do you just keep killing teams? What’s to stop that from happening? Why does it happen? When do you stop moving up teams from Main and just create more BYE weeks? Bye weeks fuck with the schedule, do they not? How do you handle points from bye weeks, if this happens?
I have a hunch that this will happen less in Adv than it currently happens in Invite just because the quality of competition isn’t so high that people feel compelled to play a lower div to place high, but I think it’s still something to expect.
Does Advanced follow Invite in having league fees and a prize pool?
After all, it would follow Invite in other aspects, and be a higher prestige div.
Does Advanced have qualifiers?
etc. etc.
I’m all for Advanced being Round Robin - I think, on a personal level, Swiss is bad for competition in small divs, as I’ve said many times on the forums - but I think we should reach a consensus on these other questions that arise out of Advanced being changed.
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@vibeisveryo why would have two divisions for the same pool of players. If you high main now and advanced becomes RR you are now mid main in theory. Just because you are a certain level in name only it doesn’t change the reality. Bad players will complain regardless in the decision, so just do it and get it over with.
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@JohhnyFromCali I agree - but the other viewpoint is:
Main has always been 2 divs in one, so it may make more logical sense to separate them.
As I said I think it makes more sense to have Main be a filter div for good teams, but others may disagree.
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What happens to the div below?
You just have more teams in Main. Arguably there were quite a few teams in advanced this season that couldn’t compete in the div. Looking at scrims you can see these teams going even with or losing to main teams. If you have better teams playing in main, it becomes a div that people want to play in again rather than something people just want to get out of by any means necessary.
Alternatively, you reintroduce challenger or put a limit on how many main teams there are.
Said this in the previous threads, if you can’t deal with telling teams they’re going to be in main because they’re going to be piss babies about it, you should resign.
What if teams die?
What do you do if teams die in invite? What did we used to do when advanced teams died when it was round robin? The possibility of teams dying doesn’t stop invite from being round robin. Additionally, nearly a third of the teams in Advanced this season died, and that causes a whole whack of problems in Swiss as well. Again this has been discussed to death in other threads.
Edit (I think if a team dies in RR you just turn that into a bye week both in the future and retroactively.)
Does Advanced follow invite in having league fees and a prize pool?
Imo you could do league fees and a prize pool main and up but the format of the division and whether or not there’s a prize pool are two completely separate issues, one doesn’t have anything to do with the other and bringing it up here just distracts from the actual problem.
Does Advanced have qualifiers
Only if you don’t do it the weekend before the first match of the season (because that was an incredibly stupid decision).
You’re making this seem way more difficult than it actually is
If Advanced had never been round robin and you were trying to figure things out for the first time, that would be more understandable. However, Advanced has been round robin before, you have a point of reference for what to do. This is obviously anecdotal, but I haven’t heard a single player say they’ve wanted Advanced to not be round robin, but there’s a whole lot of us saying that we do.
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@Xenagos said in the same thread, new season, BUT WITH A TWIST:
but the format of the division and whether or not there’s a prize pool are two completely separate issues, one doesn’t have anything to do with the other and bringing it up here just distracts from the actual problem.
yeah fair
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@vibeisveryo it’s also main where you at the middle of the pack of skill. It would make sense for a team to be above average to win it and move up.
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@Mothership It only makes sense that people keep calling attention to a problem they have, that higher up’s in rgl refuse to fix season after season. Its time to stop being a neckbeard mod and start facilitating Real Change!
Run it Up!
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@Adam mothership didnt even do anything besides link the other threads bro
if anything mothership is linking the other threads to solidify that this is a reoccurring issue that needs to be fixed -
@Adam To continue off what @Micahlele said; I am not a HL admin or mod. I do not have any say in what they do. The only power I have exists within these forums as an RGL platform.
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Can one of the end of season poll options be specifically for those who have played advanced recently and specifically ask if advanced should be round robin or not? @WiLLmaTiC