round robin advanced

#2112
Topic created · 94 Posts · 900 Views
  • @BBL silence invite player this doesn’t concern you

  • @Roofon Its my fault, I forgot that the season starts on monday and they planned Quals a week ahead of time this time around.

    IDK why the HL staff is not responding to threads since this isnt the first thread about RR in advanced for this season. Constantly made one almost 3 weeks ago

  • Even the one constantly made isn’t the first thread. people have been talking about this literally since they said last season advanced wasn’t going to be RR

  • 714a8e38-dc47-45fc-9505-83233d50be2e-image.png

    ok. NOW can we have round robin?

  • @minty Okay but have you considered this

    f17d603b-54c9-44aa-9420-9236f95b3749-image.png

  • @Xenagos tbf willmatic was the 5th person who said they’d disband over playing main. and I think he’s trying to scrape together soem friends to fill in the missing slots

  • They could have been in advanced if challenger was still around, win-win scenario.

  • Main player disbands over having to play in main 🤔

  • @JohhnyFromCali ngl its a dumb solution but it prob would of made the team live

  • @Pain-Seer all that’s important to some players is the name of division they are in.

  • @Mothership because the current hl staff has 2 humans on it and one of them has the willmatic rope around his neck forcing advanced to be swiss

    everyone else left because willmatic has done the most frogshit job of running highlander and they have to take the heat.

    Every day I just see horror stories about what’s happening to highlander. I used to clown on the 6s staff a lot and praise the HL staff for how well we worked and how bogus the 6s staff was. Now it’s the complete opposite. The 6s staff work like a well-oiled machine and 6s is thriving.

    RGL Highlander will be dead before 2023 if this keeps up.

  • @Micahlele
    RGL changes for s12
    newcomer division removed
    invite division removed
    30 team adv
    gg

  • Its actually crazy how much hl is a joke now vs like 5-6 years ago. I was talking to a retired UGC admin about this situation months ago an I can agree the care seems to only benefit certain players instead of the whole div/league an the wrong people get the blame reading a lot of this post it’s crazy most of this is a situation instead of people using their heads an making main/adv much better its crazy I understand tf2 is an old game but if mods/admins in any other game I have played competitively had this same situation it would be the most rational option an if it is a unrataional option giving a full overview an being truthful instead of reading something that sounds like ba an everyone around it telling me its bs

    I haven’t been super associated with this stuff (so correct me if I say the wrong thing)
    Also not putting all the blame on willmatic

  • i just don’t understand what the big hang up is on not having Challenger, now there’s atleast 2 teams ive seen now in Main that dont belong there and have ridiculous amounts of restrictions(which looks goofy and like a meme) This on top of there being no Adv Quals(was this ever given a reason as to why?) it just seems instead of changing/fixing 1 thing instead it seems the decision to try and flip and change and move heaven and earth is being done instead. Just seems like a giant meme that only 1 person seems to find funny

  • @Lux I think the reason there is no Challenger is because all it does is dilute the skill level of lower divisions. Even though it does allow more teams to be in a higher division, this could show a precedent that more teams = more divs, which is not a healthy mindset if you ask me. There hasn’t been a reason for not having adv quals, I think they should’ve happened, but they didn’t. Back to Main having teams that seemingly “shouldn’t be there”, is another reason for people arguing against having Challenger. Because Challenger is essentially an “extra” div, it allows for worse teams to work up the lower divs without learning much, thus leading them to having a false narrative that despite how high they are, the skill level will only vary slightly, which should not be the case. Anyway, this all basically leads back to making sure there is enough challenge in Main while still keeping Adv as tightknit as possible, making sure only the best gets to be there. This, of course, leads to people advocating for a Round Robin competitive bracket, which would show which teams are truly the best of the best, to have this, however, would mean to only having 8 teams in Adv, thus increasing the difficulty of leaving the lower divs.

    I could possibly be wrong on all fronts so please take my word with a grain of salt, but I felt that this needed at least some sort of response, even if it’s only a half-baked one.

  • Challenger doesn’t fix anything. I have spent months preaching the fact that adding more divisions will only cause more issues in the long run, while only serving as a band-aid for current issues.

    A Qualifier isn’t needed for swiss since the team limit is completely arbitrary. It is only needed for Round Robin divisions because a set amount of teams can be the division for the structure to work. That’s why as soon as Invite qualifiers were scheduled but not Advanced Qualifiers, you could automatically assume that Advanced was guaranteed to be swiss.

    I would like to think that we are tunneling on Advanced too much though in these threads though. Since the reason people want Challenger, or swiss Advanced is to absorb the higher end of Main. The source of the issue for Advanced seems to stem from whatever is happening in Main. Main players, especially on the lower end of the division, seem to have an issue with Advanced/Invite players being within the division and view it as a “brick wall” they cannot beat. Such as what Lux said above:

    now there’s atleast 2 teams ive seen now in Main that dont belong there and have ridiculous amounts of restrictions

    Part of the worry from the players in Main, I imagine, is that if Advanced/Invite players cannot fit in the Advanced division, then they are just going to win Main with no contest, leaving the teams that were previously in mid-high position to feel like they’re now in an unwinnable position. So is it better to separate the higher division players from the lower division players and create a well-defined line? or is it better to have them have to deal with the teams that aren’t good enough to make the higher division? Not necessarily taking a position with this post, I just wanted to open up this concept.

  • @Constantly in regards to the teams with ridiciulous restrictions i was speaking more towards the fact that it just looks goofy seeing a team where 9 people are restricted, just looks bush league(im probably the only one worrying about this i know) i just feel like there’s gotta be a better way here then whats going on now

    (For example it would be nice for someone anyone within the staff to come out and atleast acknowledge the concerns here, and im also willing to bet that the way they’re being expressed wouldn’t be so brutal if it didnt seem like its talking to a brick wall along with some other things being handled differently in the past)

  • Constantly telling it how it is as always.

    I will try and get the HL team to respond to these threads.

  • speaking for myself not on behalf of the hl team


    for as long as there hasn’t been an adv/chal split, main was essentially two divs: ppl too good for im but not rly good enough to be “good,” and ppl “good” but not enough to compete in the limited-space top two divs.

    what splitting adv/chal did was just split main into two divs. chal ended up being what adv was before, and adv ended up being high main. the div structure wasn’t bad, but the names were misleading, on the basis that they weren’t a permanent structure and so people thought advanced post-split could be compared to advanced pre-split.


    having more round-robin divs is not necessarily a bad thing. round-robin can be a healthy tournament format - but it has some inherent issues like what to do if teams die, etc.

    the problem is small swiss divs. swiss is not made for small divs. advanced is intended to be a small div - it being large ruins its prestige. that’s what leads to the problem, to which round robin is the most obvious solution. it’s not the only solution - there can be a double round robin, with 16 teams and two “conferences” - but RR and Swiss are generally the best we have in the context of our tournament structure.

  • @Constantly said in round robin advanced:

    Challenger doesn’t fix anything. I have spent months preaching the fact that adding more divisions will only cause more issues in the long run, while only serving as a band-aid for current issues.

    A Qualifier isn’t needed for swiss since the team limit is completely arbitrary. It is only needed for Round Robin divisions because a set amount of teams can be the division for the structure to work. That’s why as soon as Invite qualifiers were scheduled but not Advanced Qualifiers, you could automatically assume that Advanced was guaranteed to be swiss.

    I would like to think that we are tunneling on Advanced too much though in these threads though. Since the reason people want Challenger, or swiss Advanced is to absorb the higher end of Main. The source of the issue for Advanced seems to stem from whatever is happening in Main. Main players, especially on the lower end of the division, seem to have an issue with Advanced/Invite players being within the division and view it as a “brick wall” they cannot beat. Such as what Lux said above:

    now there’s atleast 2 teams ive seen now in Main that dont belong there and have ridiculous amounts of restrictions

    Part of the worry from the players in Main, I imagine, is that if Advanced/Invite players cannot fit in the Advanced division, then they are just going to win Main with no contest, leaving the teams that were previously in mid-high position to feel like they’re now in an unwinnable position. So is it better to separate the higher division players from the lower division players and create a well-defined line? or is it better to have them have to deal with the teams that aren’t good enough to make the higher division? Not necessarily taking a position with this post, I just wanted to open up this concept.

    @vibeisveryo said in round robin advanced:

    speaking for myself not on behalf of the hl team


    for as long as there hasn’t been an adv/chal split, main was essentially two divs: ppl too good for im but not rly good enough to be “good,” and ppl “good” but not enough to compete in the limited-space top two divs.

    what splitting adv/chal did was just split main into two divs. chal ended up being what adv was before, and adv ended up being high main. the div structure wasn’t bad, but the names were misleading, on the basis that they weren’t a permanent structure and so people thought advanced post-split could be compared to advanced pre-split.


    having more round-robin divs is not necessarily a bad thing. round-robin can be a healthy tournament format - but it has some inherent issues like what to do if teams die, etc.

    the problem is small swiss divs. swiss is not made for small divs. advanced is intended to be a small div - it being large ruins its prestige. that’s what leads to the problem, to which round robin is the most obvious solution. it’s not the only solution - there can be a double round robin, with 16 teams and two “conferences” - but RR and Swiss are generally the best we have in the context of our tournament structure.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I want to apologize on behalf of the HL team and Advance division as I wasn’t made aware of this post as I’ve been busy with some security/development projects as well participating within internal Advance placement discussion. These two individuals (Constantly and Vibeisveryo)
    have mostly hit it on the head.

    Before I explain my thoughts regarding how placements proceeded and the discussions that lead to the current iteration of Advance placement, I’m waiting to see if an individual or two will be expressing their thoughts before I do as I’m just a mod for Advance.

    I’d like to state, that I’ve only been apart of this team and specifically involved with the Advance division for a short duration of time. I’ve gone through (even as two days ago) read through every discussion related to the decisions regarding challenger. I would like to provide full transparency regarding this as it’s our duty as we volunteer/job to make sure that all voices are heard. You’re always more than welcome to contact me regarding the state of Advance and I will always be willing to sit down and hear your thoughts.

    From what I’ve gathered, Advance is in a unique scenario compared to the rest of the divisions. This division is basically in a balancing act because keeping the division at 8 (which would allow round robin) essentially placed Advance caliber players within Main. I’ve thought of this scenario which anyone is able to debate/counteract which is:

    How would it feel for the IM champs to basically be put into Main when there are low advance level players at the top if we kept Advance at a limit of 8?

    You could make the argument that you have to climb to the top but in Main where the system is Swiss format every point matters if you’re striving to make it to the playoffs.

    The next question then becomes well, if we expanded Advance at this point, we essentially take away from the prestige of Advance and essentially go back to the Challenger Era. Vibe nailed the main situation which is adding challenger essentially just moved advance to a “new title” while splitting a division into two (main).

    It has been discussed at meetings and looking at the polls and internal discussions, it just seems everyone is split.

    I just want to state, I completely understand the frustration and personally I’ve been trying to be transparent as possible as a representative/moderator for the Advance division since joining staff a few months ago. There’s a lot of work/clean up that needs to be done but If I’m gonna provide you a professional/mature response, I ask that you do the same moving forward to whoever participates within this discussion. Memeing/trolling then asking to be taken serious is a problem throughout the TF2 community. Everyone has lives outside of this (I work in Cyber Sec and attend grad school), but I’ll always try to sit down/communicate with players if you approach me or notify me. I take your questions/comments/concerns/suggestions seriously.

    I appreciate and thank you guys for taking the time to voice your concerns. Consider this a prologue and if the other admins/head staff don’t reply within the next 12-24 hours. I will and explain more in-depth regarding how the Advance selection process went about, the issues that arose within lower invite that forced teams to move up from originally being placed in main, and more.

    As always, feel free to contact me through steam or Discord. The TF2 community only will live on/be strong if we make it by working together. That’s at least one of my personal goals. I don’t think I’m too optimistic but feel free to argue that.

    I only can do some much as a mod but I hope this provided some assistance to degree.

    For now, best,

    -Wize

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