Adding Faceit ELO's to RGL HL profiles#2089
Can someone please explain why its a good idea to apply prolander ELOS from faceit pugs to RGL.gg Highlander players? It seems to under and overrate players based on their history in third party pugs instead of actual skill level.
It also does not help players in the mid divisions matching up with lower level players and losing their ELO due to the fact that you had a player on your team that either threw or per say, “did not preform very well” dictates your history. Because the first thing that team owners will see is that 1-10 ELO rating and say to themselves, “Well, you can’t tryout because another website says that you are a lower level.” It shamefully allows overrated players to go higher than expected and then come crashing down and underrated players getting swept under the rug, staying stuck in a division.
And it might not sound like a bad idea to improve the rank on faceit pugs, it sounds like a great idea on paper, but what happens is that as soon you have a small stretch of bad games, your ELO is going to drop and practically become impossible to recover due to the 50/50 chances faceit prolander pugs became.
I hope RGL removes the Faceit ELO ratings because it turned into a small “neesh” little prolander test to now a decider on the next generation players to get jailed in their division.
pls just add a “toggle faceit level” option on the site
not particularly related but the new site layout is really less appealing to me personally, i liked the more minimal style it just looks more cluttered now imo
We already had one new player in the discord stop in and ask how they rank up their RGL elo. All it is is useless information that only leads to confusion. I was okay with it being on the side, but putting faceit earnings on the page, current pug matches going on and worse offender is the elo ratings both on a profile and team page is to far. ITs becoming less of a league site and more of a pug stat site, something that should not even be associated with rgl in the first place
The ad banner on the side for faceit is fine
but the faceit levels on both player pages and team pages need to go.
i agree with what narwool said, get that faceit shit out of our faceit team and player profile pages.
I kinda disagree with the opinions here, only because I think it’s better for the long-term health of tf2 to have active pugs that aren’t doodoo. We should be doing everything possible to keep them going and to improve them over time. And whether people like it or not, some kind of status that shows you do well in them is a good advertisement for more players to find them and a good incentive to get more people to play in them.
TF2C used to serve the purpose of being able to pug whenever you wanted and no longer does, so there is nowhere else to reliably practice outside of scrims. These new pugs are the best thing we have now, whether you enjoy highlander more than prolander or not.
agree with markers
these pugs are the first consistent pugs in a very long time, and should be pushed as much as possible
it really felt like tf2 was dying these last few months, but faceit is rejuvenating it
@Markers they are not good pugs. At the very best they are frustrating. It’s also only 7v7 so it makes no sense to put it up with your highlander or 6s page. If they have nothing to do with them.
pugs not having consistently top level play does not mean they are not good
what makes pugs good is people consistently trying, and an overall positive environment. faceit has both for most people that play it
some people have a pretty terrible mindset towards pugs which makes it impossible for any pug to ever be “good”
i fail to see what kind of even semi realistic pug group could actually satisfy every players expectations, but i think faceit is as close to that as we can currently get
i would like to try highlander, although it is possible that 7s is just better in a pug environment because fewer people are forced onto classes they cant play, and having fewer people needed to start a pug is a good thing
I don’t have any inside info, but I find it hard to believe that sigafoo will stop with only 7s here. I imagine they’d like to expand to HL and 6s on the faceit site and if that’s the case then it makes a lot of sense from a development perspective to just write the feature in now and then tweak it in the future to maybe show different ELOs based on if you’re on the HL, 6s, or 7s version of the RGL site.
I don’t think having additional info on a user’s page on RGL is a bad idea, as long as they go back at some point and maybe clean up how it’s presented. I think the layout is a bigger issue than adding cool, free content to the RGL site. That being said, it’s easy to backseat drive here and I haven’t thought much about on what I’d do in the devs’ position to make it look spiffier and just generally less cluttered.
disagree with @Markers
not everyone has time to play actively in pugs, and many people can improve fine without the help of pugs - slower, maybe, but fine. especially people busy with other commitments like work, school, etc. may have trouble finding time to pug.
while i can see the draw of encouraging people to play pugs, it’s important to note that this has the opposite effect of possibly discouraging people who don’t have time or don’t want to play pugs from playing comp tf2 at all.
there’s also the elitism factor. people who do actively want to play comp tf2 but don’t have time for pugs may look into trying out for teams only to be denied tryouts because their faceit rank is too low or not up to their standards. this may cause them to stop looking - the discouraged worker phenomenon is not just a thing in real life.
i for one have already seen, before the introduction of faceit on player pages, too many low div teams with ridiculous/unreasonable standards for players (HL or 6s must be the only gamemode you play/you must play x tf2c lobbies a week/you must have xxxx hours in the game) - adding one more potential one, in itself a huge time draw, is not a good ideai mo.
i think you and others have recognized that pug levels will have an effect on the public perception of players they may not be familiar with - i think if people want to dig into their faceit profile (which is linked on players’ user pages!) that’s legit, but having them displayed so prominently will likely be harmful to the health of the low divs especially and the comp scene as a whole.
@vibeisveryo Your argument is a hard sell for me for a few reasons, but perhaps the biggest one is that you’re trying to make the case that someone who doesn’t have time to play a few pugs per week DOES have the time to play scrims on Saturday nights, Sunday nights, and Monday nights. You cannot have it both ways. Saying there’s a large amount of people who strictly have 0 time to play video games outside of exactly 6 hours of tf2 per week is ridiculous.
If someone seriously only has 6 hours to play tf2 per week while at a low level, I hate to be the bearer of bad news but there are probably better options for any leader to get on their team than that person… I imagine most people who lead teams are either doing so to 1. play with friends or 2. to create a space where they can improve. And if you don’t have friends on that team and don’t want to put time into improvement, someone else should and will be chosen instead.
I can understand the argument from @JohhnyFromCali saying that the pugs aren’t highlander-related and so shouldn’t be on a highlander page (even if I don’t agree that they should be taken off), but I find it hard to sympathize with any of the other arguments.
i like it because it says i’m a level 10 :))))
nah but fr, i dont like the addition of the level itself being listed on team pages and on, mainly because it shows on every part of your profile. if im playing 6s, and people see level 10 and think of being level 10 in faceit 6s, they’re gonna think im invite. the skill difference is obviously different between highlander/prolander and 6s, and i don’t think its good to have such a misrepresentation listed. i think faceit profiles being linked to rgl is a good idea tho. maybe id be okay with keeping it if they had separate elo for the 6s part and the prolander part?
if someone else already stated this opinion, sorry, i didnt read any of the other posts because i am lazy.
@Markers the problem is that in the scenario we’ve built with faceit pugs expects players seeking to play highlander not to play JUST six hours per week, but more than that. Surely there are people who don’t have time to main on teams - I am now one of them, and I’ve encountered a fair few here and there in pugs. those people just pug and are happy with their lives. but now, the expectation becomes that these people play not just those six hours, but however many hours on faceit 7v7, a format they may not enjoy, pugs they may not enjoy, or just something they may not have time for because they put their real life above a video game, despite feeling passionate about participating in said game.
leaders already have a tool to determine who is the best option for their team - it’s called tryouts, and even before they get to that stage, scraping logs, past history, etc. you cannot boil a person down to a number - and yet this is what many people are likely to do.
also, you’ve failed to consider one major kind of person - the person who wants to play both hl and 6s - who is now playing scrims six or seven days a week, two hours a day, and very likely doesn’t have time for TF2 outside. that’s not such a hard sell, is it?
you guys are all having this huge debate over pugs and time playing TF2 when the only real issue I see you guys bringing up is that people might confuse the Faceit ranking as an indicator of skill level, when it does not directly indicate anything.
As long as the Faceit ranking is proplerly marked as such, there should be no issue whatsoever what your Face-it ranking is. You can already view people’s relative skill rankings though other means already available on RGL profiles. Want to see how well a player does? Check their RGL history, UGC, ESEA, ETF2L. You can view thier logs.tf profiles and check how well they did in those matches, Damange, kills, etc.
This faceit thing is hugely overblown. Just move the rank from next to the username, to below the user information or sidebar.
I will add as a side note, its very easy to verify how much time someone spends playing games just by checking their steam profiles. And I highly doubt there are more than a handful of users that are limited to 6 hours and do not play tf2 or other video games at all. IMO its more of an issue with commitment which everyone should know TF2 players, or more specifically HL players, do not have.
I think the info should just be limited to your faceit profile, or at the least be way less prominent than it is. Like I go to my team page and it’s all over there too like why. That shit should be in its own corner not literally everywhere.
@Mothership experienced players know that the faceit number is not a proper indicator of skill just like most people know hours are also not a proper indicator of skill. Most solo queue-oriented matchmaking ranks are an extremely poor indicator of skill.
However, many people (especially in lower divisions) are not experienced and will use faceit numbers as an indicator.
Moving them away from the usernames is a good start, if the goal is to have it visible at all on rgl, but as long as it’s there, it is a problem.
Honestly its really the level indicators that annoy me, for previous statements posted. the pugs are fine, i’ll probably never play them, I dont want it splattered all over the RGL page though