RGL & South American Inclusion

#1814
Topic created · 39 Posts · 162 Views
  • Hello RGL support.

    It has come to our attention as South American players to write a formal document explaining our situation regarding the league and the new rule changes that forbids us entirely from playing.
    We would like for it to be red and analyzed by staff members in order to find a solution to this issue as fast as possible. We would love to play Season 7 like we all planned lots of time before the season officially announcing.

    https://docs.google.com/document/d/1uQyF8VtLzDdmFqLvbHe4z0hjHYRRJ9KdeilEXLUiaZw/edit?usp=sharing

  • To be honest… The information you have provided is probably well developed and well written, however, the TF2 community doesn’t have enough patience / brain power to read an essay about why SA players should be allowed to play in NA. You probably should have developed a tl:dr, or a synopsis of your information in your forum post for people who don’t harness the willpower to care, just saying.

    As someone who has been pretty vocal throughout my friend groups, the survey, and even with some admins of RGL, and as someone who is playing with SA players this season, I think SA players are fine, if and only if they ARE NOT playing sniper. Your ping has more influence on sniper, especially in SvS situations, but also sniper versus other classes. I could potentially discuss this whole concept even further, however, I don’t really see it too hard to understand. If you are interested in that experience, ask any sniper main who has sniped against a SA or Euro player recently.

    Also for the record, it might just be me, but none of the individuals you mention in the portion of your writing about the experience they and their teams have are exactly prominent names within the community (or maybe just not people I know / notice, and I have been playing for a long time), and this could pose threats to credibility, as it isn’t something that I feel many lower div players might not care about in the long run, the experience against SA players that is (at least below advanced).

  • @civ said in RGL & South American Inclusion:

    To be honest… The information you have provided is probably well developed and well written, however, the TF2 community doesn’t have enough patience / brain power to read an essay about why SA players should be allowed to play in NA. You probably should have developed a tl:dr, or a synopsis of your information in your forum post for people who don’t harness the willpower to care, just saying.

    Thank you for responding and trying to explain this. I’ve tried as much as possible to make the essay short, easy to understand and explain every possible piece of evidence or opinion that would help this situation resolve in a short span of time.

    As someone who has been pretty vocal throughout my friend groups, the survey, and even with some admins of RGL, and as someone who is playing with SA players this season, I think SA players are fine, if and only if they ARE NOT playing sniper. Your ping has more influence on sniper, especially in SvS situations, but also sniper versus other classes. I could potentially discuss this whole concept even further, however, I don’t really see it too hard to understand. If you are interested in that experience, ask any sniper main who has sniped against a SA or Euro player recently.

    This could also be handled by administration easily, preventing South American players from playing Sniper would be the solution. A simple note on the teams’ page about admins stating that X player cannot play Sniper should be enough.
    There must be flexibility for us, since some people might agree or disagree regarding latency difference, blocking an SA player on Traditional Sixes from offclassing to Sniper is an ideal solution (instead of killing an entire team).

    Also for the record, it might just be me, but none of the individuals you mention in the portion of your writing about the experience they and their teams have are exactly prominent names within the community (or maybe just not people I know / notice, and I have been playing for a long time), and this could pose threats to credibility, as it isn’t something that I feel many lower div players might not care about in the long run, the experience against SA players that is (at least below advanced).

    It is hard for me to get an opinion from really known players, since the players I’ve included into the documents are the only ones I’ve scrimmed against with my team.
    I also state that this is my first time on RGL and first time with North American players, and I’m already blocked from playing.

  • @puntero I think many people are aye-okay with letting SA players play, and yeah simply restricting them from Sniper would be good enough in my opinion for a fix (at least until something new came up that people would complain about.)

    It is unfortunate that you are blocked from playing because of the newly set ping rules (or whatever the new block is about). I don’t even really mind playing against high ping players, as long as they aren’t visibly lagging / skipping around my screen (essentially simulating a lag-switch).

    Taking a look at last season’s teams that played against The Amigos in Challenger would have been a good start, simply because they had 2 SA players, one being a heavy and the other being the sniper, which you mentioned (Mujet), in your posting. But I understand if you had to work with what you had.

  • @civ said in RGL & South American Inclusion:

    @puntero I think many people are aye-okay with letting SA players play, and yeah simply restricting them from Sniper would be good enough in my opinion for a fix (at least until something new came up that people would complain about.)

    It would be ideal, only to play this Season which we all South Americans prepared and organized to abide by current rules at the time of paying inscription fees and registering into the league.

    It is unfortunate that you are blocked from playing because of the newly set ping rules (or whatever the new block is about). I don’t even really mind playing against high ping players, as long as they aren’t visibly lagging / skipping around my screen (essentially simulating a lag-switch).

    They aren’t new, but a reversion of a latency-based system to determine “out of NA” players, which was implanted into the league to include Peru and Colombian players (because they do not have official leagues in their regions and staff took this decision because it was unfair for them, to later revoke it).

    Taking a look at last season’s teams that played against The Amigos in Challenger would have been a good start, simply because they had 2 SA players, one being a heavy and the other being the sniper, which you mentioned (Mujet), in your posting. But I understand if you had to work with what you had.

    Yeah, Highlander would be another problem to tackle. The issue right now is Sixes, which is where most South Americans were suddenly cut because of this rule change.

  • @puntero Ahh, I see. Yeah I don’t keep up much with 6s, so I do not know much about the changes.

    I know in HL there has been a limit put in place to prevent too many individuals outside of NA even playing on a team, and then they can’t exceed like 150 ping or something like that (I am probably completely wrong on that number).

    Hopefully something changes for you gents over there on that side of the game.

  • @civ said in RGL & South American Inclusion:

    @puntero Ahh, I see. Yeah I don’t keep up much with 6s, so I do not know much about the changes.
    I know in HL there has been a limit put in place to prevent too many individuals outside of NA even playing on a team, and then they can’t exceed like 150 ping or something like that (I am probably completely wrong on that number).
    Hopefully something changes for you gents over there on that side of the game.

    Thank you for being concerned about this issue 🙂
    We South Americans just want to play in a new environment where things are different from here. We love to expand to newer places and just play the game, I hope Staff takes notice of this and offers us a solution everyone (even NA) could agree upon.

  • @civ Reversion to the old rule means there isn’t a ping rule anymore, other than just “don’t make it unplayable for the other players”.

    https://forums.rgl.gg/topic/1810/rgl-staff-changes-global-rule-updates-and-2021-august-bans

  • @scaredy-bat said in RGL & South American Inclusion:

    @civ other than just “don’t make it unplayable for the other players”.

    What do you mean with this statement?

  • I’m confused where within the rules it says that SA players are unable to compete
    This rule existed before changing to a ping-based system and players such as legit were able to compete just fine

    Under these new guidelines, there is no hard ping cap for non-NA players. There is only a limit to how many non-NA players may participate on a team. SA individual players can still find opportunities to succeed on NA teams. I have seen many non-NA players compete at a high level within both sixes and Highlander

  • @puntero

    [1005.4.2] - Connection
    If a player’s ping, regardless of region, causes the game to be unplayable for other players (e.g. their character is constantly lagging/jumping around, etc…), that player may be blocked from that region’s competitions. If the said player was used in a match, their team may face penalties and be forced to replay or forfeit rounds the player negatively impacted.

    That’s not a new rule, it’s old. It’s similar to what you mentioned in your document about players with like really excessive ping.

    Also, yeah, out of region players aren’t being forbidden from playing, just subject to restrictions.

  • @Constantly said in RGL & South American Inclusion:

    I’m confused where within the rules it says that SA players are unable to compete

    This rule existed before changing to a ping-based system and players such as legit were able to compete just fine

    Under these new guidelines, there is no hard ping cap for non-NA players. There is only a limit to how many non-NA players may participate on a team. SA individual players can still find opportunities to succeed on NA teams. I have seen many non-NA players compete at a high level within both sixes and Highlander under these “new” guidelines

    This is the issue. Most players from SA that came to RGL were Brazilian or Peruvians. Peruvians never presented as bad experiences to play against because they have less than 110ms on NA.
    If latency is not an issue for one or two players from South America (which is what the rules were like since RGL started) why would it be now?
    The 150ms latency rule was imposed (like I said in the docs) to include Peru and Colombian players. This was imposed at the beginning of 2021. 4 days before this was still like so.

    With now less than a week before the first match from Season 7 is disputed this is changed back. It wouldn’t have been a problem if this rule change was done before the Season was officially announced, if so we wouldn’t have organized our teams in a way that they abided by existing rules at the moment of inscription.

    @scaredy-bat said in RGL & South American Inclusion:

    @puntero
    That’s not a new rule, it’s old. It’s similar to what you mentioned in your document about players with like really excessive ping.

    I have never referenced the Connection rule, but rather the Region rule, which is the one not allowing us to play.

    Excessive ping should be defined as well, because all scrims played (in my experience) with 180ms did not present any complaints from the other team at any given moment.

    Before this rule change, with the latency based system, Peru players were excluded from the “out of NA” rule (because they have less than 110ms). Now, by removing this rule, all teams that had Peru players were killed because they now abide by the region rule.

    In our document we gathered distinct opinions and experiences from players inside North America that played against us (or other South American players with +150ms) guaranteeing latency did not offer a bad experience nor rubber banding/lag spiking in any occasion.

    Also, yeah, out of region players aren’t being forbidden from playing, just subject to restrictions.

    Like I said before, this wouldn’t be an issue if this rule change was done just days before the season begins.
    All teams with South American players were already organized and rostered in a way that rules criteria was met. With this rule change, they are not.

  • ok so the issue isn’t necessarily the individual rule “blocking SA players from competing in NA”, the issue is that the timing was horrendous for the SA teams that were not part of the high ping issue and are now forced to either change their rosters or not play the upcoming season

    Am I understanding that correctly?

  • @Constantly said in RGL & South American Inclusion:

    ok so the issue isn’t necessarily the individual rule “blocking SA players from competing in NA”, the issue is that the timing was horrendous for the SA teams that were not part of the high ping issue and are now forced to either change their rosters or not play the upcoming season

    Am I understanding that correctly?

    Exactly. This is what we’re trying to fix, at least for Season 7 which is the one we all were already set-up to play before this rule change hit us.

    We can talk about other flexibilities or inclusion whenever this season finishes if anybody is up for the game.

  • @puntero said in RGL & South American Inclusion:

    @Constantly said in RGL & South American Inclusion:

    ok so the issue isn’t necessarily the individual rule “blocking SA players from competing in NA”, the issue is that the timing was horrendous for the SA teams that were not part of the high ping issue and are now forced to either change their rosters or not play the upcoming season

    Am I understanding that correctly?

    Exactly. This is what we’re trying to fix, at least for Season 7 which is the one we all were already set-up to play before this rule change hit us.

    We can talk about other flexibilities or inclusion whenever this season finishes if anybody is up for the game.

    So if this rule goes into effect next season instead, you guys would be okay with it?

  • @Mothership I think at least giving them a season, while the RGL team worked on it would be the best bet. It kind of bones them to work during the preseason and be blind sided by rule changes a few weeks, or even days(?) before the seasons start.

  • @civ said in RGL & South American Inclusion:

    @Mothership I think at least giving them a season, while the RGL team worked on it would be the best bet. It kind of bones them to work during the preseason and be blind sided by rule changes a few weeks, or even days(?) before the seasons start.

    I was asking if simply post-phoning the rule until next season would suffice, as it would be a much easier argument to make if the real issue was the timeliness of the rule update.

    Post-phoning AND also changing the rule would be more work than just changing the rule like they are already requesting.

  • @Mothership said in RGL & South American Inclusion:

    @puntero said in RGL & South American Inclusion:

    @Constantly said in RGL & South American Inclusion:

    ok so the issue isn’t necessarily the individual rule “blocking SA players from competing in NA”, the issue is that the timing was horrendous for the SA teams that were not part of the high ping issue and are now forced to either change their rosters or not play the upcoming season

    Am I understanding that correctly?

    Exactly. This is what we’re trying to fix, at least for Season 7 which is the one we all were already set-up to play before this rule change hit us.

    We can talk about other flexibilities or inclusion whenever this season finishes if anybody is up for the game.

    So if this rule goes into effect next season instead, you guys would be okay with it?

    Yes.
    If this rule change is reverted, we would all be playing just as everything was planned out in the beginning with original rules.
    I have an open ticket on RGL’s Discord regarding this entire situation with South America. If administration team could read it and talk with me about it, it would help a lot to explain this better thoroughly.

    @Mothership said in RGL & South American Inclusion:

    @civ said in RGL & South American Inclusion:

    @Mothership I think at least giving them a season, while the RGL team worked on it would be the best bet. It kind of bones them to work during the preseason and be blind sided by rule changes a few weeks, or even days(?) before the seasons start.

    I was asking if simply post-phoning the rule until next season would suffice, as it would be a much easier argument to make if the real issue was the timeliness of the rule update.

    It would suffice, at least for now. A better solution could be discussed after this Season plays out.

  • @Mothership I think it is something that can be explored a bit deeper, like you said, it needs a bit more work. I think they just simply want to play.

  • @puntero said in RGL & South American Inclusion:

    Exactly. This is what we’re trying to fix, at least for Season 7 which is the one we all were already set-up to play before this rule change hit us.

    We can talk about other flexibilities or inclusion whenever this season finishes if anybody is up for the game.

    Okay, that is way more understandable. Considering the riot on tftv, I thought it was another misunderstanding about blocking all non-NA players from playing RGL(which is not true).

    I support the idea that timing is everything when it comes to major change, and for a rule that potentially affects 100+ players, it is definitely something that I think could have more well-planned timing. I think part of the reason is due to the alting and cheating issue created a sense of urgency to update the ruleset–which I think is also perfectly understandable if it is the case.

    However with the players in mind, the correct thing to probably do is to either delay the rule update entirely to s8 6s (s11 HL) OR allow existing teams to roster all their non-NA players by a certain deadline, where after the deadline, they limit the new roster transactions to the current limit. That could be a decent middle-ground for the teams that were affected this season

  • @puntero See you are not understanding what I am saying. I am asking if this rule would go into effect next season, with zero changes or debates or updates, would you be okay with that.

    This means that this rule would go into effect at the start of next season with zero changes.

    Is that something you would be okay with?

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