CP_STEEL_REFRESH Discussion & Feedback thread.

#1800
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  • I haven’t fully read through this thread, but someone mentioned that there are no gameplay changes. However, cp_steel is well known for its many quirks that involve weird clippings and wall surfs that open up the map to a lot more movement options. Anything that affects clipping, particularly on this map, can be a big deal. That sniper window on B being filled in is a big change. Moving props around is a big deal. “Small changes” can change the dynamic of a point, cut off or add routes around the map for a subset of classes, or alter sightlines which seriously affects gameplay.

    Maybe these changes are justified, or maybe they aren’t; but I’m not a fan of passing it off as some small non-gameplay affecting, minor bug fix “refresh” update.

    Maybe I’m out of the loop, but who in invite outside of this thread is even aware that cp_steel got changed?

  • As far as I can tell, the window thing is indeed being singled out by people as a change with gameplay impact. As background/context, there was a previous version of Steel Refresh that had a large number of bigger gameplay changes, which induced a correspondingly large outcry, causing the Refresh folks to revert the changes.

  • @shotaway said in CP_STEEL_REFRESH Discussion & Feedback thread.:

    I haven’t fully read through this thread, but someone mentioned that there are no gameplay changes. However, cp_steel is well known for its many quirks that involve weird clippings and wall surfs that open up the map to a lot more movement options. Anything that affects clipping, particularly on this map, can be a big deal. That sniper window on B being filled in is a big change. Moving props around is a big deal. “Small changes” can change the dynamic of a point, cut off or add routes around the map for a subset of classes, or alter sightlines which seriously affects gameplay.

    Maybe these changes are justified, or maybe they aren’t; but I’m not a fan of passing it off as some small non-gameplay affecting, minor bug fix “refresh” update.

    Maybe I’m out of the loop, but who in invite outside of this thread is even aware that cp_steel got changed?

    upfrag

  • Hey, so I’m the dude working on this map currently and I’m happy to clear up some confusion.

    @shotaway said in CP_STEEL_REFRESH Discussion & Feedback thread.:

    what got changed

    A lot, a few thing shave already been covered in the thread such as the B window and Chicken-Wire room cleanup.
    You can find the rest of the changes here.

    @Technoman said in CP_STEEL_REFRESH Discussion & Feedback thread.:

    They added walls to the connector between lobby and d instead of it being that rocky wall

    The rock wall actually had the same collision as the new glass window implimented, this was purely a visual change made to represent the hitbox of the room correctly.

    @Markers said in CP_STEEL_REFRESH Discussion & Feedback thread.:

    which is just getting rid of hiding spots for spy for no apparent reason

    The context in the message has been removed, but jackylegs was referring to hiding spots on clip brushes above the play area (like the one above the main entrance on B).

    @shotaway said in CP_STEEL_REFRESH Discussion & Feedback thread.:

    Anything that affects clipping, particularly on this map, can be a big deal.

    I wholeheartidly agree, and after trial and error with the previous iterations of our steel we’ve finally narrowed it down to one that feels true to og steel and maintains the original creator’s vision.

    If you guys have any questions please feel free to reply or contact me over steam; I’m happy to chat with anyone who wants to know more.

  • I can see where harris0n is coming from in his changes, I think they probably make the map a little better (though we’ll see how much meds like getting dropped from new angles from snipers due to the fixed clipping on things), but I personally feel that I was a bit misled by the survey.

    I can’t find the exact wording (honestly I don’t remember how I voted) for the cp_steel refresh question, but I remember it being very much along the lines of “no gameplay changes, only small quality of life things.”

    The patchnote for the removal of the default B sniper angle:

    Removed the pixel sniper angle through the window

    Maybe I’m a bit dumb, but considering the changelog also lists removing little angles I’d never even heard of, like this one at wishbone, “Prevented shooting through the small hole in the window”, I thought maybe it was some little pixel peek through the window on the sniper perch overlooking B.

    Removing the meta sniper angle changes pushing B almost completely, it’s the default spot and teams have whole zany strategies devoted to getting the sniper off that angle, and it’s arguably the only angle in competitive where it isn’t a throw to not run the vanilla sniper rifle; I thought it made for an interesting dynamic that is now gone (though I’m obviously biased as a sniper main).

    alt text

    Obviously, people should try to know what they’re getting into before voting for it, I think that’s a takeaway here, but I think the way the survey presented the question (at least how I remember it), it came across as to me as “oh well if it’s just small little things here and there, I trust that it’s just changing clipping and stuff, no biggie.” I think I might’ve even voted no lol

    I don’t remember what the discussions were had (if there even were any) about the map in the HL staff channels when I was a staff member, though I almost certainly wouldn’t share staff discussions like that publicly. But enough rambling, I think that:

    1. Either HL staff (myself included) didn’t take a close look enough at the map before putting out the poll

    OR

    2. The question on the poll was worded fucking terribly, assuming I remembered it correctly

    Regardless, it seems I’m not the only one who was misled by the question as I remember it.

    It would be SOOOOO much easier to have this discussion if all poll results were released publicly, then I wouldn’t have to spend half an hour typing up rants about hypothetical poll questions, rather than keeping them hidden from the public. You don’t have to write an exa-style article, just take some screenshots or post a link.

  • nobody asked for the window angle to be removed. it’s a strong angle, yes, but it has always been a feature that teams learn to play around.

    regardless of if you think the angle is fair or not, this is a MAJOR gameplay change and should NOT be included in a version that is supposed to JUST be quality of life fixes and better clipping.

  • there is counterplay to the window angle by hugging the right side of the spawn door and peeking slowly to the window angle at the beginning of round.

    the angle isn’t oppressive enough to warrant a removal if the argument is to improve QoL on steel

  • I can appreciate the intention and your dedication towards map improvement, but anything that changes gameplay shouldn’t be passed off so lightly and tossed right into the season. There is a difference between the visual feel and “creator’s vision” of the map (it was added in 2008 and last updated in 2013; the map should be considered out of the original creator’s hands) and its functional gameplay topology. Removing a sightline that doesn’t feel like it should be there might be a small fix in terms of aesthetic or QoL, but it could change the way the point or the whole map is played. For instance, if that sightline is no longer viable then teams might position completely differently, placing emphasis on different points altogether.

    That soldier spot above B has been considered a legitimate gameplay option for years. Removing it eliminates that gameplay option entirely, reducing the map to something else. Severing a gameplay option is probably never isolated and will change the weights of other gameplay options. Spots like these either exist or they don’t and the fact that it might be an unintended pixel walk doesn’t change its existence as a gameplay option. If the goal is QoL, you could easily add some other prop up there to address it while also attempting to keep it functionally the same. If the goal is larger than this, then it should be dealt with as a gameplay changing update and not passed off as if it were a set of nonfunctional changes as it seems to have been implied. Maybe they are justified improvements, but if so then I think there should be more talk before it’s implemented.


    I’d like to add that I think adding another instance of separation from the vanilla game by creating a new map file for cp_steel is probably not the way to go, but this is besides the point and I’m sure many would disagree with me.

  • @shotaway said in CP_STEEL_REFRESH Discussion & Feedback thread.:

    That soldier spot above B has been considered a legitimate gameplay option for years. Removing it eliminates that gameplay option entirely, reducing the map to something else. Severing a gameplay option is probably never isolated and will change the weights of other gameplay options. Spots like these either exist or they don’t and the fact that it might be an unintended pixel walk doesn’t change its existence as a gameplay option. If the goal is QoL, you could easily add some other prop up there to address it while also attempting to keep it functionally the same. If the goal is larger than this, then it should be dealt with as a gameplay changing update and not passed off as if it were a set of nonfunctional changes as it seems to have been implied. Maybe they are justified improvements, but if so then I think there should be more talk before it’s implemented.

    I assume you’re talking about the spot right above the B entrance, the spot is still there just not at the usual place players know of, see album - https://imgur.com/a/rNOAfi7
    Reasoning for this was clean up and improvement of clipbrushes to ensure better movement around the area while still keeping the hiding spot players are used to use.

  • anyone who’s arguing against the removal of the crack shot on the B needs to lose their human rights immediately

    the amount of pearl-clutching in this thread my god

  • It’s the medic mains vs the sniper mains who will win

  • @Alto it’s one thing to say it should be removed and another thing to remove it while claiming there were no gameplay changes

  • @shotaway on a philosophical level sure it’s dishonest to an extent but on a practical level it’s like your mechanic throwing in a free oil change after you paid him for a tune up, realistically speaking there should be no complaints

  • alto stop talking you are wrong

  • @pajaro said in CP_STEEL_REFRESH Discussion & Feedback thread.:

    alto stop talking you are wrong

    how long has it been since u got a win in invite lol

  • Didn’t see this in the patch notes posted on tf2 maps

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cqHbcX4nA4

    I really don’t understand how this is possible but talking to Jacob about this bug it has apparently happened to others before on the map

    idk if it has something to do with the pit death prior as when he respawns it states in the kill feed that he dies to a “clumsy painful death” rather than “bid farewell cruel world” if you were to kill bind

    def something to look into in the refresh if its possible to fix

  • i don’t know the specifics of it but i think it has something to do with the map keeping your downward velocity as you respawn and (presumably) amping it up somehow so that you respawn and immediately crater. idk the specifics of steel’s pit/spawn but i’d imagine you could band-aid the problem by having a thin layer of water in the spawn to prevent fall damage, assuming i’m understanding the interactions correctly

    would look weird but function > form

  • @eerie said in CP_STEEL_REFRESH Discussion & Feedback thread.:

    Didn’t see this in the patch notes posted on tf2 maps

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cqHbcX4nA4

    I really don’t understand how this is possible but talking to Jacob about this bug it has apparently happened to others before on the map

    idk if it has something to do with the pit death prior as when he respawns it states in the kill feed that he dies to a “clumsy painful death” rather than “bid farewell cruel world” if you were to kill bind

    def something to look into in the refresh if its possible to fix

    F5a

    “Removed the overlapping kill triggers on the pipes in the pit on E which should hopefully remove the spawn kill bug. If you still encounter this bug please let me know and provide a demo with tick so I can look into it further”

    F6

    “Merged all kill triggers into one in the bottom of the pit on E (hopefully this will prevent all future spawn deaths, please contact me or leave a post if you still experience this bug on F6)”

  • @eerie said in CP_STEEL_REFRESH Discussion & Feedback thread.:

    Didn’t see this in the patch notes posted on tf2 maps

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cqHbcX4nA4 […]

    @Alto said in CP_STEEL_REFRESH Discussion & Feedback thread.:

    i don’t know the specifics of it but i think it has something to do with the map keeping your downward velocity as you respawn and (presumably) amping it up somehow so that you respawn and immediately crater. […]

    Just want to elaborate on the reasons behind the brush changes I made for F5a and F6 so you don’t have to flip between threads.
    While exploring this problem I realised that the pipes in the pit as well as the trigger at the bottom are made up of multiple brushes:

    pipe triggers
    pit triggers

    My running theory is that a player hits both of these triggers in the same tick so the server stores the second kill for when the player respawns.
    The reason behind the “fell to a clumsy painful death” message is displayed (and one of the key reasons I believe multiple triggers are causing this issue) is due to the death notice parameter being set to the ‘Fall’ damage type

    damage text

    Since adding the fix I have yet to see the bug be recreated on both the pipes and the pit, but if you do encounter it (on F5a onwards) please let me know so I can look into the issue

    tl;dr
    multiple triggers in pit and on pipes has (probably) been causing the instadeath on spawn bug, my solution was to remove the multiple triggers and turn them into one.

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