CP_STEEL_REFRESH Discussion & Feedback thread.

#1800
Topic created · 28 Posts · 264 Views
  • upward refresh pls tho??? 🙂

  • I can see a reasoning behind all of the changes except for the initial defense spawn going into B. Not that it really matters, but was there a reason to change that that I’m not seeing?

    Edit: Also thanks for getting rid of barrels.

  • My assumption for the spawn being changed on B is due to help mediate players that awkwardly drop to the bottom and have to walk back up.

    This looks more streamlined, although honestly I probably won’t really notice the change overall.

    Also heck that window peak spot. That should have been removed ages ago.

  • @Powerpuker said in CP_STEEL_REFRESH Discussion & Feedback thread.:

    My assumption for the spawn being changed on B is due to help mediate players that awkwardly drop to the bottom and have to walk back up.

    I’ve definitely never had to do the walk of shame after unexpectedly getting whipped out of spawn during setup time 🙂

  • that B spawn room was garbo, new room is better.

    also iirc the original steel mapper even approved of that redesign

  • @Pain-Seer Yeah, the B Spawn Room change (among other changes in the map) was approved by the original cp_steel map developer.

    5be040d3-795e-4c26-8ac3-3092451b8c77-image.png

  • @exa said in CP_STEEL_REFRESH Discussion & Feedback thread.:

    @Pain-Seer Yeah, the B Spawn Room change (among other changes in the map) was approved by the original cp_steel map developer.

    5be040d3-795e-4c26-8ac3-3092451b8c77-image.png

    To be honest, my only complaint is kinda implicit in this message exchange, which is just getting rid of hiding spots for spy for no apparent reason. I mean overall, whatever I guess. I can see the appeal to the walls in the hallway from Lobby to D, for example, because of issues with stickies going inside the geometry (I’m taking someone’s word for that, I never actually tested it)…

    but if there’s not a bug to fix or an actual game play issue being addressed in the first B spawn other than “I can’t operate in a 3D environment while nobody is shooting at me in pregame”, that’s when I get a bit cynical.

    But like I said, it’s whatever overall. Not a big complaint.

  • the barrel was one of the few things on cp_steel that made the map worth showing up to scrims for
    BringBackTheBarrel

  • I haven’t fully read through this thread, but someone mentioned that there are no gameplay changes. However, cp_steel is well known for its many quirks that involve weird clippings and wall surfs that open up the map to a lot more movement options. Anything that affects clipping, particularly on this map, can be a big deal. That sniper window on B being filled in is a big change. Moving props around is a big deal. “Small changes” can change the dynamic of a point, cut off or add routes around the map for a subset of classes, or alter sightlines which seriously affects gameplay.

    Maybe these changes are justified, or maybe they aren’t; but I’m not a fan of passing it off as some small non-gameplay affecting, minor bug fix “refresh” update.

    Maybe I’m out of the loop, but who in invite outside of this thread is even aware that cp_steel got changed?

  • As far as I can tell, the window thing is indeed being singled out by people as a change with gameplay impact. As background/context, there was a previous version of Steel Refresh that had a large number of bigger gameplay changes, which induced a correspondingly large outcry, causing the Refresh folks to revert the changes.

  • @shotaway said in CP_STEEL_REFRESH Discussion & Feedback thread.:

    I haven’t fully read through this thread, but someone mentioned that there are no gameplay changes. However, cp_steel is well known for its many quirks that involve weird clippings and wall surfs that open up the map to a lot more movement options. Anything that affects clipping, particularly on this map, can be a big deal. That sniper window on B being filled in is a big change. Moving props around is a big deal. “Small changes” can change the dynamic of a point, cut off or add routes around the map for a subset of classes, or alter sightlines which seriously affects gameplay.

    Maybe these changes are justified, or maybe they aren’t; but I’m not a fan of passing it off as some small non-gameplay affecting, minor bug fix “refresh” update.

    Maybe I’m out of the loop, but who in invite outside of this thread is even aware that cp_steel got changed?

    upfrag

  • Hey, so I’m the dude working on this map currently and I’m happy to clear up some confusion.

    @shotaway said in CP_STEEL_REFRESH Discussion & Feedback thread.:

    what got changed

    A lot, a few thing shave already been covered in the thread such as the B window and Chicken-Wire room cleanup.
    You can find the rest of the changes here.

    @Technoman said in CP_STEEL_REFRESH Discussion & Feedback thread.:

    They added walls to the connector between lobby and d instead of it being that rocky wall

    The rock wall actually had the same collision as the new glass window implimented, this was purely a visual change made to represent the hitbox of the room correctly.

    @Markers said in CP_STEEL_REFRESH Discussion & Feedback thread.:

    which is just getting rid of hiding spots for spy for no apparent reason

    The context in the message has been removed, but jackylegs was referring to hiding spots on clip brushes above the play area (like the one above the main entrance on B).

    @shotaway said in CP_STEEL_REFRESH Discussion & Feedback thread.:

    Anything that affects clipping, particularly on this map, can be a big deal.

    I wholeheartidly agree, and after trial and error with the previous iterations of our steel we’ve finally narrowed it down to one that feels true to og steel and maintains the original creator’s vision.

    If you guys have any questions please feel free to reply or contact me over steam; I’m happy to chat with anyone who wants to know more.

  • I can see where harris0n is coming from in his changes, I think they probably make the map a little better (though we’ll see how much meds like getting dropped from new angles from snipers due to the fixed clipping on things), but I personally feel that I was a bit misled by the survey.

    I can’t find the exact wording (honestly I don’t remember how I voted) for the cp_steel refresh question, but I remember it being very much along the lines of “no gameplay changes, only small quality of life things.”

    The patchnote for the removal of the default B sniper angle:

    Removed the pixel sniper angle through the window

    Maybe I’m a bit dumb, but considering the changelog also lists removing little angles I’d never even heard of, like this one at wishbone, “Prevented shooting through the small hole in the window”, I thought maybe it was some little pixel peek through the window on the sniper perch overlooking B.

    Removing the meta sniper angle changes pushing B almost completely, it’s the default spot and teams have whole zany strategies devoted to getting the sniper off that angle, and it’s arguably the only angle in competitive where it isn’t a throw to not run the vanilla sniper rifle; I thought it made for an interesting dynamic that is now gone (though I’m obviously biased as a sniper main).

    alt text

    Obviously, people should try to know what they’re getting into before voting for it, I think that’s a takeaway here, but I think the way the survey presented the question (at least how I remember it), it came across as to me as “oh well if it’s just small little things here and there, I trust that it’s just changing clipping and stuff, no biggie.” I think I might’ve even voted no lol

    I don’t remember what the discussions were had (if there even were any) about the map in the HL staff channels when I was a staff member, though I almost certainly wouldn’t share staff discussions like that publicly. But enough rambling, I think that:

    1. Either HL staff (myself included) didn’t take a close look enough at the map before putting out the poll

    OR

    2. The question on the poll was worded fucking terribly, assuming I remembered it correctly

    Regardless, it seems I’m not the only one who was misled by the question as I remember it.

    It would be SOOOOO much easier to have this discussion if all poll results were released publicly, then I wouldn’t have to spend half an hour typing up rants about hypothetical poll questions, rather than keeping them hidden from the public. You don’t have to write an exa-style article, just take some screenshots or post a link.

  • nobody asked for the window angle to be removed. it’s a strong angle, yes, but it has always been a feature that teams learn to play around.

    regardless of if you think the angle is fair or not, this is a MAJOR gameplay change and should NOT be included in a version that is supposed to JUST be quality of life fixes and better clipping.

  • there is counterplay to the window angle by hugging the right side of the spawn door and peeking slowly to the window angle at the beginning of round.

    the angle isn’t oppressive enough to warrant a removal if the argument is to improve QoL on steel

  • I can appreciate the intention and your dedication towards map improvement, but anything that changes gameplay shouldn’t be passed off so lightly and tossed right into the season. There is a difference between the visual feel and “creator’s vision” of the map (it was added in 2008 and last updated in 2013; the map should be considered out of the original creator’s hands) and its functional gameplay topology. Removing a sightline that doesn’t feel like it should be there might be a small fix in terms of aesthetic or QoL, but it could change the way the point or the whole map is played. For instance, if that sightline is no longer viable then teams might position completely differently, placing emphasis on different points altogether.

    That soldier spot above B has been considered a legitimate gameplay option for years. Removing it eliminates that gameplay option entirely, reducing the map to something else. Severing a gameplay option is probably never isolated and will change the weights of other gameplay options. Spots like these either exist or they don’t and the fact that it might be an unintended pixel walk doesn’t change its existence as a gameplay option. If the goal is QoL, you could easily add some other prop up there to address it while also attempting to keep it functionally the same. If the goal is larger than this, then it should be dealt with as a gameplay changing update and not passed off as if it were a set of nonfunctional changes as it seems to have been implied. Maybe they are justified improvements, but if so then I think there should be more talk before it’s implemented.


    I’d like to add that I think adding another instance of separation from the vanilla game by creating a new map file for cp_steel is probably not the way to go, but this is besides the point and I’m sure many would disagree with me.

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