Weapon Bans: Which confuse you? What would you ban/unban if you could and why?

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  • Are there any weapon bans active in any format that confuse you or you just in general have no idea why it’s banned?

    Also if you had the chance to either ban or unban a weapon in any format what would it be?

    I’ve been looking at the weapon bans and thinking about how many weapons have changed since being banned and wondering if anyone wants any weapons specifically unbanned for any reason.

  • I hate the Fists of Steel ban in Prolander. I wish I knew why it was banned.

  • @Ryuk
    For 6s I’d unban:

    Soda Popper
    Sure it gives you the jumps, but you have to build up damage to get there, starting you out at a disadvantage every time you spawn. Scout’s scattergun already does a good amount of damage up-close and scout 1v1s can be pretty quick, with only 3 shots exchanged, which in that case the soda popper would lose due to the reload being necessary. Sure it’s annoying to fight as soldier or demo, but if you let the scout get to that point it’s kinda your fault. In the same way that you let a soldier build up banner, or a demo get kills with the eyelander etc.

    Bonk!
    If you use this, you’re probably baiting your team. Using it to go behind the enemy puts your team at a potential 6v5 fight where they should lose. If you’re spotted while using bonk! You’re a pretty easy kill since you’re slow. Soldiers or scouts can just decimate you.
    Speaking from experience in nr6s

    Crit-a-cola
    The only time when it’s useful is during ubers. People forget that mini-crits don’t have damage falloff, so if you don’t have a buff and get piped from ANYWHERE you die instantly (If you take a rocket you’re left with 3 health, or die instantly if you’re in ramp-up range). The majority of the time you’re left with the downside of not having a pistol. It can totally be used to push a stalemate or uber add if your pocket scout died in the last fight, but that’s pretty much it, doesn’t exactly warrant a ban anymore.
    Speaking from experience in nr6s

    Flying Guillotine
    The times when it would be useful is during stalemates, which when that happens healthpacks are normally nearby. Not exactly a powerful weapon, just an annoying one like the Wrap Assassin. It doesn’t need to be banned in my opinion.

    Pretty Boy’s
    This DESERVED the ban before, when it got the upside of health. But it’s been nerfed since then, since you don’t get 7hp per shot at any range anymore. The faster firing speed is good and bad since it can make you miss more, but it’s just a sidegrade to the pistol. Doesn’t need a ban.
    Speaking from experience in nr6s.

    Cow Mangler
    While the slower first reload was a significant downside before, I’d say that it still has one with the rising presence of engineers. Engineer isn’t a generalist yet by any means, but he’s definitely a rising force to be reckoned with. Sentry guns are a staple in the last hold defense of 6s now, and are making their way onto koth with maps like clearcut. With the buffs to the Jag (and engineer in general) the cow mangler has a notable downside, sure you CAN disable sentries, but it’s not nearly as good as just finding an angle and killing them (and in that situation you’re going to get pushed since you have to reload 4 times before being able to fire again, a great way to die after firing off 1 shot, putting your team at a player disadvantage).
    Speaking from experience in nr6s

    B.A.S.E. Jumper
    It got nerfed a while ago and kills your momentum while jumping, there isn’t much of a reason to keep it banned.

    Disciplinary Action
    We’re not ETF2L, we don’t have to have mods that slow down the game. The primary argument to keep this banned is “OH wElL YoU cAn TaKe A hEaVy To MiD” ok yeah sure, but now what? Get bombed in choke because your team was too slow to actually make it to the mid fight? Or bait your demo and roamer (plus scout and medic possibly) because you’re still rolling out? You’re giving up positional advantage if you’re using the whip to get a heavy to mid, the actual argument here is that you can get your combo to mid faster, but you’re giving up crit heals on your pocket to do so. It sounds scary, but really shouldn’t be.
    Speaking from experience in nr6s

    Buffalo Steak
    See the argument for the Disciplinary Action. Also giving up the potential of the sandvich or banana would be really dumb, especially if the whip gets unbanned.
    Speaking from experience in nr6s

    Quick Fix
    You still can die to stickytraps, snipers, bombing soldiers, scouts etc when using the quick fix. Focus fire (Which is common in 6s) can out-damage the uber as well. It’s a good option, especially for mid, but that’s about it. If you want to take the potential advantage on mid, to potentially have a disadvantage when pushing second and so on, that’s a choice that I think is interesting and we shouldn’t remove from the game.
    Speaking from experience in nr6s

    Diamondback
    The main issue that I personally have with the diamondback is that you get crits for destroying Engineer buildings, since you can get a potential 5 crits for killing 1 player. That being said, in 6s you’re not going for the engineer. You’re going for the Demo or Medic. If you get that stab, you typically die instantly, so even if you do get 1 102 shot off, you’re not killing anyone else. You’d be better off using the L’Etranger to have the cloak bonuses to get that initial stab. It doesn’t deserve a 6s ban.
    Speaking from experience in nr6s

    Agreements
    Reserve Shooter
    I don’t think I really need to explain myself here, but it’s a really strong defensive weapon, if it’s unbanned you should probably have your pocket run it to deny sacs from soldiers. It punishes using advanced movement which isn’t fun to play against. This is a shame since I love the reserve shooter in casual, so I thought of a potential tweak: if it’s possible having the reserve shooter only mini-crit when you or a teammate knocked someone in the air it would keep the original intention of the weapon intact without punishing Soldiers, Demos, and Pyros for choosing advanced movement.

    Mad Milk
    If it gave 35% heals like the concheror instead of 60% I think it could be unbanned. It’s really strong for team fights, especially in gamemodes with points or payloads.
    Speaking from experience in nr6s

    Natascha
    Mechanically broken unfortunately. I do think the mod that speeds up the heavy instead of slowing targets is an interesting take, but would make it trash in 6s.

    Rescue Ranger / Short Circuit
    This is more of a problem with map design than the weapons themselves, if maps had an extra room before the resup like on granary that way the engineer can’t spam bolts or short circuit balls when defending last they could be fine.
    Speaking from experience in nr6s

    Wrangler
    I don’t think I really need to explain myself here, in casual and Highlander it’s not as great since the engineer has to fight spies (which barely exist in 6s), and a total of 8-11 damage sources (assuming the casual team has a medic) while in 6s he has to deal with 5…. It’s a lot easier to tank damage. It’s too strong at the moment.
    Speaking from experience in nr6s

    Vaccinator
    I see that it’s not that great in high level play, but I feel that a team with 1 medic that’s competent with it could completely carry a team from Newcomer through Intermediate to be absolutely honest. Personally I’d be interested to see it reworked to deploy the shield from MvM, which makes medic more interactive (and you can do damage as a medic here) while also risking a player walking through the shield or behind it to drop you. A simple nerf at the moment would be to remove the passive bubble, but I’m more interested in the former.

    Machina
    Sniper stronk + no real downsides + drops medics easier

    Sydney Sleeper
    Sniper typically builds up a bodyshot to kill meds anyway, this doesn’t have a huge downside. A 10% or even 5% damage penalty would put it in the realm of “not being able to 1 shot a medic” and would drop the viability.

    Eh

    Jarate
    Jarate is really really strong. But with the increasing speed of soldier and demos with the increased speed of medic…. I don’t know why you would EVER want to get close enough to POTENTIALLY jarate someone. If you miss you’re throwing, but if you hit them, you team might be able to push? Idk, it’d need to be tested more to get an opinion from me.

  • Cow mangler in sixes: its not as strong as people paint it out to be and there is a reason that only 1 of the 2 soldiers ran it while it was allowed.
    Pros:
    -charged shot
    -infinite ammo
    Cons:
    -extremely loud and distinct, since the pocket soldier runs stock and the roamer runs mangler, you can tell when the roamer is bombing taking away his element of stealth.
    -Charged shot drains ammo so if you are heard using it, an enemy can commit on you and kill you since you have no rockets left.
    -Cant spam sentry guns out which is why only one soldier uses it.

  • @QueeQuey said in Weapon Bans: Which confuse you? What would you ban/unban if you could and why?:

    @Ryuk
    For 6s I’d unban:

    Soda Popper
    Sure it gives you the jumps, but you have to build up damage to get there, starting you out at a disadvantage every time you spawn. Scout’s scattergun already does a good amount of damage up-close and scout 1v1s can be pretty quick, with only 3 shots exchanged, which in that case the soda popper would lose due to the reload being necessary. Sure it’s annoying to fight as soldier or demo, but if you let the scout get to that point it’s kinda your fault. In the same way that you let a soldier build up banner, or a demo get kills with the eyelander etc.

    Bonk!
    If you use this, you’re probably baiting your team. Using it to go behind the enemy puts your team at a potential 6v5 fight where they should lose. If you’re spotted while using bonk! You’re a pretty easy kill since you’re slow. Soldiers or scouts can just decimate you.
    Speaking from experience in nr6s

    Crit-a-cola
    The only time when it’s useful is during ubers. People forget that mini-crits don’t have damage falloff, so if you don’t have a buff and get piped from ANYWHERE you die instantly (If you take a rocket you’re left with 3 health, or die instantly if you’re in ramp-up range). The majority of the time you’re left with the downside of not having a pistol. It can totally be used to push a stalemate or uber add if your pocket scout died in the last fight, but that’s pretty much it, doesn’t exactly warrant a ban anymore.
    Speaking from experience in nr6s

    Flying Guillotine
    The times when it would be useful is during stalemates, which when that happens healthpacks are normally nearby. Not exactly a powerful weapon, just an annoying one like the Wrap Assassin. It doesn’t need to be banned in my opinion.

    Pretty Boy’s
    This DESERVED the ban before, when it got the upside of health. But it’s been nerfed since then, since you don’t get 7hp per shot at any range anymore. The faster firing speed is good and bad since it can make you miss more, but it’s just a sidegrade to the pistol. Doesn’t need a ban.
    Speaking from experience in nr6s.

    Cow Mangler
    While the slower first reload was a significant downside before, I’d say that it still has one with the rising presence of engineers. Engineer isn’t a generalist yet by any means, but he’s definitely a rising force to be reckoned with. Sentry guns are a staple in the last hold defense of 6s now, and are making their way onto koth with maps like clearcut. With the buffs to the Jag (and engineer in general) the cow mangler has a notable downside, sure you CAN disable sentries, but it’s not nearly as good as just finding an angle and killing them (and in that situation you’re going to get pushed since you have to reload 4 times before being able to fire again, a great way to die after firing off 1 shot, putting your team at a player disadvantage).
    Speaking from experience in nr6s

    B.A.S.E. Jumper
    It got nerfed a while ago and kills your momentum while jumping, there isn’t much of a reason to keep it banned.

    Disciplinary Action
    We’re not ETF2L, we don’t have to have mods that slow down the game. The primary argument to keep this banned is “OH wElL YoU cAn TaKe A hEaVy To MiD” ok yeah sure, but now what? Get bombed in choke because your team was too slow to actually make it to the mid fight? Or bait your demo and roamer (plus scout and medic possibly) because you’re still rolling out? You’re giving up positional advantage if you’re using the whip to get a heavy to mid, the actual argument here is that you can get your combo to mid faster, but you’re giving up crit heals on your pocket to do so. It sounds scary, but really shouldn’t be.
    Speaking from experience in nr6s

    Buffalo Steak
    See the argument for the Disciplinary Action. Also giving up the potential of the sandvich or banana would be really dumb, especially if the whip gets unbanned.
    Speaking from experience in nr6s

    Quick Fix
    You still can die to stickytraps, snipers, bombing soldiers, scouts etc when using the quick fix. Focus fire (Which is common in 6s) can out-damage the uber as well. It’s a good option, especially for mid, but that’s about it. If you want to take the potential advantage on mid, to potentially have a disadvantage when pushing second and so on, that’s a choice that I think is interesting and we shouldn’t remove from the game.
    Speaking from experience in nr6s

    Diamondback
    The main issue that I personally have with the diamondback is that you get crits for destroying Engineer buildings, since you can get a potential 5 crits for killing 1 player. That being said, in 6s you’re not going for the engineer. You’re going for the Demo or Medic. If you get that stab, you typically die instantly, so even if you do get 1 102 shot off, you’re not killing anyone else. You’d be better off using the L’Etranger to have the cloak bonuses to get that initial stab. It doesn’t deserve a 6s ban.
    Speaking from experience in nr6s

    Agreements
    Reserve Shooter
    I don’t think I really need to explain myself here, but it’s a really strong defensive weapon, if it’s unbanned you should probably have your pocket run it to deny sacs from soldiers. It punishes using advanced movement which isn’t fun to play against. This is a shame since I love the reserve shooter in casual, so I thought of a potential tweak: if it’s possible having the reserve shooter only mini-crit when you or a teammate knocked someone in the air it would keep the original intention of the weapon intact without punishing Soldiers, Demos, and Pyros for choosing advanced movement.

    Mad Milk
    If it gave 35% heals like the concheror instead of 60% I think it could be unbanned. It’s really strong for team fights, especially in gamemodes with points or payloads.
    Speaking from experience in nr6s

    Natascha
    Mechanically broken unfortunately. I do think the mod that speeds up the heavy instead of slowing targets is an interesting take, but would make it trash in 6s.

    Rescue Ranger / Short Circuit
    This is more of a problem with map design than the weapons themselves, if maps had an extra room before the resup like on granary that way the engineer can’t spam bolts or short circuit balls when defending last they could be fine.
    Speaking from experience in nr6s

    Wrangler
    I don’t think I really need to explain myself here, in casual and Highlander it’s not as great since the engineer has to fight spies (which barely exist in 6s), and a total of 8-11 damage sources (assuming the casual team has a medic) while in 6s he has to deal with 5…. It’s a lot easier to tank damage. It’s too strong at the moment.
    Speaking from experience in nr6s

    Vaccinator
    I see that it’s not that great in high level play, but I feel that a team with 1 medic that’s competent with it could completely carry a team from Newcomer through Intermediate to be absolutely honest. Personally I’d be interested to see it reworked to deploy the shield from MvM, which makes medic more interactive (and you can do damage as a medic here) while also risking a player walking through the shield or behind it to drop you. A simple nerf at the moment would be to remove the passive bubble, but I’m more interested in the former.

    Machina
    Sniper stronk + no real downsides + drops medics easier

    Sydney Sleeper
    Sniper typically builds up a bodyshot to kill meds anyway, this doesn’t have a huge downside. A 10% or even 5% damage penalty would put it in the realm of “not being able to 1 shot a medic” and would drop the viability.

    Eh

    Jarate
    Jarate is really really strong. But with the increasing speed of soldier and demos with the increased speed of medic…. I don’t know why you would EVER want to get close enough to POTENTIALLY jarate someone. If you miss you’re throwing, but if you hit them, you team might be able to push? Idk, it’d need to be tested more to get an opinion from me.

    Soda popper does almost the same dps as the normal scattergun if you hit your shots, and gives you a shit ton more mobility, thats really broken in 6s…

    bonk gives you the ability to tank traps and spam and have ur team be able to rush, along with back cap potential, its really not great

    crit a cola: im just gonna say this ; anything that gives you free crits or mini crits is going to be bad for game balance, good scouts can just get tanked and not have to worry about it

    Guillotine; the biggest reason its banned IMO is more spam is bad in 6s, especially 90 damage hitscan to a scout on an insane short cooldown

    pretty boys is banned bc in higher divs intense scout vs scout fights, getting 3 hp back per hit and having increased firing speed means its almost a direct upgrade on stock pistol

    mangler just means soldiers dont have to grab ammo, and charge shots are dumb, makes soldier significantly stronger of a spam class, they have infinite rockets

    base jumper means soldiers can stay airborne for a longer time, and leads to thinks like air strike nukes, its just bad for the momentum of the game

    whip makes it so you can get heavy to mid faster, which means if u play a slow mid, they cant bomb ur med, and scouts get wrecked if they try to get close, its really really strong

    steak sandwich makes heavy faster, thats always something ur not going to want in 6s.

    quick fix has faster healing, and significantly faster ubers, and also you can jump with your soldier , which means if ur med gets bombed, u can just bomb away with ur soldier. the healing too, u can just play 6 person combo and keep everybody tanked bc of the heal rate.

    Diamondback is more free crits, which will always be unhealthy for the game

  • Ban wrangler… And if that’s too much, ban its use with the gunslinger. Wrangled minis ruin games.

  • Unban the airstrike in Highlander. It really doesn’t have the potential that it is commonly believed to have. If you’re worried about the pressure from a bomb with the airstrike, especially on a map like ashville, communicate with your team and have your med adjust their positioning (e.g. back of ramp). It also requires the soldier to get kills beforehand to use its full value.

    At the very least, I would like to see it unbanned for a season for theory testing–the same way that we banned the scorch shot and darwin’s danger shield. I really am surprised every season it’s polled and doesn’t go through

  • @Constantly Given that the policy is to never do HL PUGs in the current system, I’m wondering if a cup wouldn’t be the way to go for testing live without committing to a full season.

  • @scaredy-bat

    A cup could possibly work if paired with another major change (such as banning the wrangler). I don’t think it warrants a cup on its own–and I would prefer the Admins do map cups for Highlander instead of a whitelist cup anyways.
    Committing a full season to test out a weapon change would provide much more constructive feedback than a short cup imo

  • @ALL-FEAR-THE-FREAK I would disagree here.

    The soda popper gives mobility yes, but you have to get there first. You can make the same argument with a ton of the “snowball” weapons that are allowed. Also, “if you hit your shots” can be said about any item. I don’t think that’s a strong argument to be honest.

    Bonk: Yeah you can tank a trap, but then right after your bonk is over your movement speed is lowered (and in this case would be by a ton). If you need to “tank spam” you’re playing pretty dumb to be honest and deserve to lose. So I do agree that it’s not that great.

    Guillotine: Spam is inevitable, also if you “Spam” your guillotine you’re going to spend more time without a secondary than with one, putting yourself at a downside. Guillotine is also a projectile? It’s not instant lol.

    Pretty boy’s is not as strong as you think, the nerf to the health back has made it significantly worse. The “faster firing speed makes the dps higher” argument doesn’t work since you’re not constantly firing your entire ammo supply on your pistol unless you’re the engineer.

    Mangler: The charge shot is garbage 99% of the time, if you use it, you have no primary weapon and HAVE to reload for a few seconds. If you’re running out of rockets as soldier you’re doing something wrong.

    Base jumper: If you think people would run the air strike if this got unbanned you’re insane lol

    Whip: Yeah sure, you have a heavy late to mid, the other team (if they’re not bad) should either have killed your demo+roamer already and have your side trapped off since you’re rolling out slower to do so. I’ve tested this (it wasn’t in a season environment to be fair) and the heavy to mid is not the strongest part of the weapon, and isn’t an issue here.

    Steak: Yeah, I don’t want a heavy that can’t swap off of his melee and takes 35% more damage on my team. Maybe on the rollout for a surprise, but the sandvich/banana with the whip would be better.

    Quick Fix: The uber build rate bug was fixed quite a while ago, it doesn’t build nearly as insanely as you think. If your med gets bombed and isn’t beaming a scout then I don’t know what they’re doing. Also you take fall damage still, so if you try to get out with a sliver of health you’re going to hilariously die.

    Diamondback: It’s literally not an issue. L’Etranger is wayyyy better in the 6s environment. Why would I ever give up an increased chance of a kill on the med/demo for the possibility of maybe getting a 102 shot off on 1 player that’s probably buffed? It’s a good weapon in HL and casual, but not in 6s.

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