The RGL Expiremental Map Cup is Being Wasted.

#1387
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  • If you want new maps to potentially be added, look to techie with cp_rapids, pieman with synthetic, and defcon with cascade because they’re all skilled mapmakers who are extremely receptive to feedback. But at this point I wouldn’t be surprised if techie was just done with the HL community after invite players refused to test rapids because it didn’t have fucking decals on it. I know I would be.

    @Alto MegaPieManHD is the creator of Synthetic and is currently on working on Midwest. Both Berryville and Midwest are textured. So the idea of having testing actual experimental maps is still not out of the question.

  • man what the fuck even happened with the new map pugs, I was so down to keep playing Rapids and see it come to life

    Three things. Borneo is fine, people just ree like idiots at the idea of maps being longer when there’s nothing inherently wrong with a long Payload, people just have incredibly short attention spans. Nothing inherently wrong with a Tele being a strong pick: are you seriously arguing that Engineer should remain unimportant??? Nothing inherently wrong with a map being defense-oriented, it’s okay to need to turn your brain on to make a push work. You get hyperspeed Vigil, it’s okay to have something at the other end of the spectrum.

    Berryville is an atrocious example of a map that could be added to the pool as walking around in it immediately presents irremediable problems within a Highlander context. It’s a 6s designed map that would immediately devolve into a worse-than-Product-fest of breaking through Demo and Sniper with every other class having no recourse. The fact of the matter is that virtually every map that has potential within Highlander has been already raised and given serious consideration. Like it or not, the candidate pool is extremely slim, and if you bring it up, it’s already been brought up and rejected because it’s just not workable. Whether or not you think these maps are good, they’re the only things we can use.

    And as regards both points above: can anyone here even formulate what exactly makes a good map? Why is fucking Product still held up as the gold standard, the KOTH map singlehandedly responsible for the entire Highlander community’s Stockholm syndrome towards their Demos and Snipers, for everyone somehow thinking it’s normal for 7/9 classes to simply not play the game and for KOTH to be braindead W-fests? There’s basically not a single argument here backed by any understanding of game design, everyone just yaps on about how “idk we’ve just always done it like this” and “oh no I don’t want to spend more than 10 minutes pushing :(”. Maybe you’re right or maybe you’re wrong, but I know damn well none of you would actually be able to figure out why.

    Maybe the reason we don’t get many new maps is because even we don’t know what the fuck we want. We just wanna show up and have a good goddamn time without the tedium of having a conscious thought pop into our brains.

    tl;dr everyone is a brainlet and doesn’t know what they’re saying

  • @Flare said in The RGL Expiremental Map Cup is Being Wasted.:

    tl;dr everyone is a brainlet and doesn’t know what they’re saying

    I don’t think being calling people in this thread dumb is a good idea to get them to see your perspective.

  • @firepow said in The RGL Expiremental Map Cup is Being Wasted.:

    @Flare said in The RGL Expiremental Map Cup is Being Wasted.:

    tl;dr everyone is a brainlet and doesn’t know what they’re saying

    I don’t think being calling people in this thread dumb is a good idea to get them to see your perspective.

    I’m on my last season, I’m long past giving a shit

  • @Flare then why did you post anything

  • @Erika same reason you did

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  • Another victory for point-scoring instead of actually engaging with the argument. Nothing escapes the internet’s vapid downward spiral.

  • @Flare I haven’t been able to shitpost on forum threads in a long time man let me have my fun.

    Speaking of fun, if you want my take on this whole thing so that I’m contributing, here’s a lil something.

    Pushing a payload map for 15-20 minutes consistently isn’t fun. Swiftwater is pushing the length a bit when it comes to payload, but generally vigil and upward stick to times well under 15 minutes, and usually under 10 aside from some choice upward games.

    Blah blah fun is subjective blah blah. I don’t care. It’s an opinion a lot of people share and express and I think rgl should do what is the most fun for the majority of the players while sticking to what highlander is all about.

    If it’s not fun, why bother?

    Also, shoutout to burger pugs map test edition where we got a solid-like 3 pugs on rapids, and then I hosted 3 more times and nobody showed up so I killed the group.

  • i personally think ratJAM is a great map and i love killing pugs by picking it.

  • @Micahlele It’s not just that this idea of fun is subjective, it’s that it isn’t even based on any particular metric that’s universally applicable. On the one hand, boo how dare Sniper be in the game, but on the other hand yay Product, best KOTH map! On the one hand, long times bad, on the other, yay isn’t a 14 minute time on Vigil so cool?? There’s no standard applied, there is only what people do or don’t like when they play it.

    The real point I’m pushing is that this “fun only” attitude is exactly why new maps just cannot happen in our format. There’s no understanding or discussion of what makes a map good, so no feedback can occur, because the only mechanism people are using to make judgments starts with d and ends with opamine. It’s completely unsustainable and results in a sea of open-mouthed Highlander players waiting for a map maker to drop a perfect map with no usable feedback and no one willing to take the time to understand the underlying patterns to replicate past successes.

    You want a good new map? Getting it won’t be fun. You want fun? You won’t get good new maps.

  • @Flare you can’t really say the candidate pool is extremely slim and ignore all but one of the maps currently in active development viable with enough changes for HL, and also offer no constructive criticism about that one map

  • @vibeisveryo

    1. Yes, I can, because this thread isn’t about offering criticism to the maps, and my post was about criticizing the thought process involved.

    2. If I were to offer “constructive” criticism about that map for HL, it would cease to be the map it was intended to be, which is a 6s map.

    3. This continues to pick at the sides of my argument instead of addressing the meat of it.

  • If enough people really wanted to test maps in the community, you’d have to individually get 18 people or two actual teams (or more) to agree to test maps regularly at a scheduled time each week. Most HL players already give up their Saturday nights for TF2, so I’m sure that wouldn’t be a big issue. It has to be a commitment, not an afterthought like it’s always been to most people.

    Specifically you’d need:

    • People to know they don’t have a chance of being fat kidded and will actually get to play the game instead of completely wasting their time.
    • People to know who they will be playing with, so they know for a fact someone they hate won’t be there (or at least they’ll know beforehand)
    • 18 people at a high-ish level to mainclass (or as many as possible to mainclass) while dividing themselves into 2 relatively equal teams in skill.
    • Everyone to take it seriously (good luck)
  • @Flare said in The RGL Expiremental Map Cup is Being Wasted.:

    @Micahlele It’s not just that this idea of fun is subjective, it’s that it isn’t even based on any particular metric that’s universally applicable.

    What do you think subjective means

  • @firepow said in The RGL Expiremental Map Cup is Being Wasted.:

    @Alto MegaPieManHD is the creator of Synthetic and is currently on working on Midwest. Both Berryville and Midwest are textured. So the idea of having testing actual experimental maps is still not out of the question.

    I didn’t realize pieman did midwest (hadn’t heard of it before this thread, definitely gonna check it out), but for you to even conceive of berryville being played in HL requires a lobotomy as the bare minimum. like, it’s beyond square peg-round hole to even consider that map. I played it in a 5am 4s pug which is normally my favorite time to play tf2 and I couldn’t even enjoy myself without constantly getting visions of the apocalypse that would occur if there 18 players on it.

    @Flare said in The RGL Expiremental Map Cup is Being Wasted.:

    And as regards both points above: can anyone here even formulate what exactly makes a good map? Why is fucking Product still held up as the gold standard, the KOTH map singlehandedly responsible for the entire Highlander community’s Stockholm syndrome towards their Demos and Snipers, for everyone somehow thinking it’s normal for 7/9 classes to simply not play the game and for KOTH to be braindead W-fests? There’s basically not a single argument here backed by any understanding of game design, everyone just yaps on about how “idk we’ve just always done it like this” and “oh no I don’t want to spend more than 10 minutes pushing :(”. Maybe you’re right or maybe you’re wrong, but I know damn well none of you would actually be able to figure out why.

    @Flare said in The RGL Expiremental Map Cup is Being Wasted.:

    The real point I’m pushing is that this “fun only” attitude is exactly why new maps just cannot happen in our format. There’s no understanding or discussion of what makes a map good, so no feedback can occur, because the only mechanism people are using to make judgments starts with d and ends with opamine. It’s completely unsustainable and results in a sea of open-mouthed Highlander players waiting for a map maker to drop a perfect map with no usable feedback and no one willing to take the time to understand the underlying patterns to replicate past successes.

    You want a good new map? Getting it won’t be fun. You want fun? You won’t get good new maps.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MF3Hg6FBBSU

  • @Flare said in The RGL Expiremental Map Cup is Being Wasted.:

    You want a good new map? Getting it won’t be fun. You want fun? You won’t get good new maps.

    You aren’t helping this thread. You are only giving criticism without giving any solutions. Also quit the namecalling. Your bitter and destructive attitude is not going to push out innovation.

    Offer solutions, or get the fuck out of my thread.

  • @Flare You base what you said over me thinking we need new maps.

    Upward Vigil Swiftwater Ashville Lakeside Product Cascade Steel is a solid 8 map selection and I don’t think we need new maps at all.

    CS:GO rocked Dust 2, Mirage, Train, Overpass, Nuke, Inferno, Cobblestone for the longest time and it was fantastic to play and watch. Only recently/semi-recently (correct me if I’m wrong) did they swap out Cobble for Vertigo officially, and literally today swapping Train for Ancient in the active duty pool.

    Yea you can say the maps received updates and changed over time, some even got overhauls like Dust 2, Nuke, and Inferno, but it’s still the same deal.

    Ashville got its overhaul thanks to Rorek and Hino, vigil, cascade, and product have been updated, even lakeside got a “refresh” technically.

    I think new maps can be cool and fun to play on and testing them can be fun too, but I don’t think they are necessary.

    Is a long time bad? Yes! If a team is getting rolled so hard that they get a 14 minute time on Vigil, that is not the map’s fault and is in fact usually “team dif” where you wouldn’t have fun no matter how good the map is.

    Using sand’s spreadsheet of invite stopwatch times here we can see that the average time for Upward is just about 8 minutes, Vigil is about 7 minutes, Swiftwater is 9 minutes, and Steel is 7 minutes.

    Yes, the slowest times for all the maps were around the 15 minutes mark give or take a minute, with upward not fitting in having the slowest be 11:30. But these are the slowest times, that should only happen around 2% of the time. A map like borneo has 15 minutes as the average meaning it’s the most likely outcome.

  • @Alto said in The RGL Expiremental Map Cup is Being Wasted.:

    @firepow said in The RGL Expiremental Map Cup is Being Wasted.:

    @Alto MegaPieManHD is the creator of Synthetic and is currently on working on Midwest. Both Berryville and Midwest are textured. So the idea of having testing actual experimental maps is still not out of the question.

    I didn’t realize pieman did midwest (hadn’t heard of it before this thread, definitely gonna check it out), but for you to even conceive of berryville being played in HL requires a lobotomy as the bare minimum. like, it’s beyond square peg-round hole to even consider that map. I played it in a 5am 4s pug which is normally my favorite time to play tf2 and I couldn’t even enjoy myself without constantly getting visions of the apocalypse that would occur if there 18 players on it.

    Unless the map is as open as cp_orange or as choke-heavy as dustbowl. It should be tested for competitive. I had fun playing on it in Prolander pugs. If you would like to leave feedback on it here’s the thread: https://forums.rgl.gg/topic/496/koth_berryville/4?_=1620170298732

    @Flare said in The RGL Expiremental Map Cup is Being Wasted.:

    And as regards both points above: can anyone here even formulate what exactly makes a good map? Why is fucking Product still held up as the gold standard, the KOTH map singlehandedly responsible for the entire Highlander community’s Stockholm syndrome towards their Demos and Snipers, for everyone somehow thinking it’s normal for 7/9 classes to simply not play the game and for KOTH to be braindead W-fests? There’s basically not a single argument here backed by any understanding of game design, everyone just yaps on about how “idk we’ve just always done it like this” and “oh no I don’t want to spend more than 10 minutes pushing :(”.

    Product is not the gold standard map for the majority of the playerbase. It got moved out of rotation in Season 5. Unless you are a Sniper main (Sniper dominant map), lower-level player (Snipers aren’t as effective in lower-divisions compared to Invite/Challenger), or a TF2Center goblin (only knows how to play one map), the rest of the playerbase dislikes the map.

    Every map gets slack some players and there’s no one map that everyone likes. Stop pretending there is one. If you want a discussion about good map design don’t be such a self-righteous asshole.

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