The RGL Expiremental Map Cup is Being Wasted.

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  • @dlphn said in The RGL Expiremental Map Cup is Being Wasted.:

    to me, it seems clear that rgl’s current goal is to find a larger selection of acceptable maps than just the standard 7 that get played every season

    the problem is that a lot of these maps like borneo and ramjam have clear flaws that make them basically unworkable against maps like upward, swiftwater, cascade, product, etc. and more crucially are 99% never going to be updated to fix said flaws

    new maps on the other hand will be updated and will continuously get better

  • @scaredy-bat said in The RGL Expiremental Map Cup is Being Wasted.:

    @dlphn said in The RGL Expiremental Map Cup is Being Wasted.:

    which would require huge revisions and another map cup to test these revisions.

    Except that they will never get to the stage of being acceptable because nobody will test them to get them to that stage and would rather return to old evils as a dog returneth to its vomit.

    New maps are not going to spring fully formed from the ground like soldiers from dragons’ teeth. We need to actually invest in their development as as community and as a league.

    EXACTLY

  • @dlphn I agree with dolphin here

    i started hl with rgl, I never played UGC. I would at least like to try the old maps that everyone says were meh and make up my own opinion rather than have someone with their head up their ass try to lecture me on why i shouldn’t even consider trying a map.

    Maybe they’re not quite as bad as we remember, perhaps metas have shifted since then, especially with different weapon bans. At the very least let the zoomers who’ve never had the opportunity to try these maps see how bad they are so we can end this discussion and not have to debate on whether or not we should include borneo or whatever in the map pool. Many of the maps listed in end of season polls as potential swap ins haven’t been played in years, how can me and a huge chunk of the rgl playerbase who have never played them properly vote on whether or not they should be played?

    Maps can still progress via testco and other map testing groups, map development isn’t going to grind to a screeching halt without this cup. Obviously getting an entire cup or even season would be ideal, but I also seriously doubt this is gonna be the last experimental cup ever.

    Also i’m speaking about this as a player, not as a staff member, I didn’t take any part in the decision for this experimental cup.

  • @tua There is no other comp map testing group for HL currently other than Testco, which has a Main+ division restriction, and for the last three weeks Testco playtests were DOA because nobody showed up. Several of these were directly competing with RGL PUGs at the same time.

    Either way, I think it’s a point worth making regardless of whether “but there will be other map cups in future!” If not now, when do we make our voices heard? Just wait and be completely reactive instead of proactive?

  • I am just going to state my opinion, although I do understand wanting to experience maps you haven’t played before.

    bad maps are no longer played for good reasons. I would rather us not waste time and resources re-learning lessons we have already learned years ago.

    new cascade should be tested because its new and has an active developer willing to work with us. we can find new issues and fix them, and add it into the rotation this season.

    None of the other maps will be added back in. because you guys will play them, re-experience the same things as its the same map, and we will repeat this process again in a year.

    No, 5cp and HL isnt fun and will never be fun due to the gamemode’s innate issues with the format. 6’s works with 5cp because 6’s was designed around that gamemode. Vanguard was made with HL in mind iirc and we played it a total of 3 times in UGC(?)

    ramjam is too big of a map for koth and while yes, we haven’t played it since UGC, the issues that were presented to the map developer were ignored and was not fixed. Also don’t use UGC as an example for anything good.

    borneo is a very long map. When your best pick as spy defending last is to sap the teleporter, its a bad map. when your engineer on offence runs full time EE for ez teles, its a bad map. Its the anthesis of vigil with cap times of 10 minutes not being bad.

    Millstone.

    Anyone remember badwater_pro? I think we are on version 20 of that map.

    anyone remember barnblitz_pro???


    Again, I understand you guys wanting to experience those maps that you haven’t before, but do them in your in-house pug groups instead.

  • @scaredy-bat said in The RGL Expiremental Map Cup is Being Wasted.:

    @tua There is no other comp map testing group for HL currently other than Testco, which has a Main+ division restriction, and for the last three weeks Testco playtests were DOA because nobody showed up. Several of these were directly competing with RGL PUGs at the same time.

    Either way, I think it’s a point worth making regardless of whether “but there will be other map cups in future!” If not now, when do we make our voices heard? Just wait and be completely reactive instead of proactive?

    I’m a little confused regarding what the argument you’re trying to make is. Experimental maps/versions have all received attention in the past, and will most likely receive attention in the future through cups and general events. Nobody(as far as I can tell) is arguing against the idea that newer competitive maps in development could use the additional testing.

    However, that just doesn’t seem like the main focus of this cup in particular, which is to revisit certain maps and to redetermine their viability. It doesn’t feel like a waste of a cup in the slightest as long as post-cup feedback regarding the maps is received.

    Though I can definitely see this thread as a call to action for highlander admins to host more cups during future offseason so that new maps can see proper testing. If there was an experimental cup every offseason, then who knows, Highlander could see major map changes in the future.
    However I also know that hosting these kinds of events can be time-intensive and draining for the organizers, so I appreciate the cups that we can get.

    Also just to make it easier for people to view exp cup map history:

    Exp Cup #1: synthetic_rc2, vanguard, millstone_v2
    Exp Cup #2: proside_rc2, vigil_rc4, synthetic_rc5
    Exp Cup #3: clearcut_b14d, synthetic_rc6a, ashville_rc2a
    Upcoming Exp Cup #4: cascade_v2_b5, ramjam_rc1, borneo

  • @Constantly If for one season and just one season the league announced they’d decided to replace Steel with Badwater because people hadn’t played Badwater in too long, I would also speak up and provide the feedback that I disagreed with this, regardless of whether Steel would be put back in and Badwater taken back out in future seasons.

    I don’t agree that revisiting old maps is a good use of an experimental map cup, regardless if newer players haven’t played it*, and I think committing to testing actual new maps is better for HL as a whole – especially when the non-Cascade maps are just there filling space and not actually likely candidates. At least if the “not actually likely candidate” maps were new maps, something of value for the future of comp would be gained (large amounts of comp playtesting feedback).


    *Mothership brings up 5CP as another thing that most new players haven’t done either, and honestly, at least there have been new 5CP maps developed since we stopped doing 5CP HL and it would at least be a slightly different variant of something ruled out in the past, rather than literally exactly the same thing.

  • @scaredy-bat said in The RGL Expiremental Map Cup is Being Wasted.:

    I don’t agree that revisiting old maps is a good use of an experimental map cup, regardless if newer players haven’t played it*, and I think committing to testing actual new maps is better for HL as a whole – especially when the non-Cascade maps are just there filling space and not actually likely candidates. At least if the “not actually likely candidate” maps were new maps, something of value for the future of comp would be gained (large amounts of comp playtesting feedback).

    This. Wasting 2 map slots to play-test the same mediocre maps that haven’t been updated in years over and over again won’t bring fresh life in the competitive scene. Especially for older players. Personally, it’s would be a lot more exciting to see maps that are being updated frequently such as pl_midwest get some more feedback in a Highlander setting. The only time I’ve seen midwest get played competitively is in RGL Prolander Pugs.

  • I don’t care as long as we never play 5CP again.

  • @scaredy-bat if i was rgl head admin, i would want a map’s inclusion in an experimental cup to be the final step in including that map in the pool. the value of an experimental cup (it seems to me) is to expose that map to players of all levels and gauge public opinion on it

    i don’t think a cup that runs every six months or whatever is a good choice for developer feedback on newmap_rc1 and then _rc2 and then _rc3 and then _rc3b before it is FINALLY ready to be added. this kind of testing should be reserved for pugs like testco (rest in peace), and that final, refined _rc3b version should be what’s included in the experimental cup

    at least, that’s the map development cycle i would be most interested in. i’m not a mapper or an admin

  • @dlphn Sure, and if I was RGL head admin, I would want a full rotating staff available to cover different shifts so that players could reach admin team members during game times and there’s always at least one mod on duty and everybody gets swapped off on the regular to avoid volunteer burnout. Also pizza and ice cream for all.

    We don’t have the castle in the sky, we have a hut on the ground. The relatively long period of time between cups is all the more reason why cups should not be wasting time on old, discredited maps.

  • Lota new players in here talking about maps being discredited that they have never played at any level of play, much less a high level of play… Borneo and ramjam have their issues, but that doesn’t discount them as fun maps to play in the competitive scene. Imo borneo and ramjam being in rotation once a year each would be very fun. Borneo’s biggest issues are last (name a pl map without a crap last… I’ll wait) and the fact that it takes a while to push (although I think that is simply a part of the map and not an actual problem). Ramjam’s issue is basically that it’s a little larger than most koth maps, but in my experience, it is still very fun and much more fun than cascade (although I haven’t played the new version that is being tested in the cup).

  • @TheS4rr said in The RGL Expiremental Map Cup is Being Wasted.:

    Lota new players in here talking about maps being discredited that they have never played at any level of play, much less a high level of play… Borneo and ramjam have their issues, but that doesn’t discount them as fun maps to play in the competitive scene. Imo borneo and ramjam being in rotation once a year each would be very fun. Borneo’s biggest issues are last (name a pl map without a crap last… I’ll wait) and the fact that it takes a while to push (although I think that is simply a part of the map and not an actual problem). Ramjam’s issue is basically that it’s a little larger than most koth maps, but in my experience, it is still very fun and much more fun than cascade (although I haven’t played the new version that is being tested in the cup).

    Borneo and ramjam are both bad maps for HL. Ramjam has been tested on 3(?) separate occasions and each time it was written off as awful in general. Borneo is just absolutely awful. The only redeeming point on that map is the 2nd point; every other point is so terrible that it’s not even worth looking at. It was consistently ranked as the least popular map in the rotation in UGC when it was played, and for good reason. There have been 0 changes to either of these maps since they were tested and written off. The developers are either inactive or do not care about the map enough to make further changes. Please god do not use nostalgia-tainted lenses to trick yourself into thinking either of these maps were good to play.

  • @TheS4rr but why be content with rotating in bad, unfun maps that won’t get better once a year when there are active and willing mapmakers who are building maps that are being actively improved and just need more feedback to get that improvement

  • @pajaro this guy is right

  • entire situation is fucked because only a microscopically small percentage of the tf2 community actually wants to maptest
    sure people are always down to ‘pug new maps’ if its a map that’s 80% done and has some degree of playability so that they can give minor feedback and get hipster cred
    no one wants iterate through 17 quick compiles of dogshit maps without textures or decals to form it into an actual workable map
    regardless of the fact that the majority of people in this community wouldn’t know what a good map actually is if it crawled out of their monitor and slapped them in the face, most people don’t even have standards for what constitutes a good map other than if they have fun in the moment, and regardless of whether or not those standards are good or not, it’s a step above what normally happens
    there are also cases like warmtic/millstone/ramjam where the mapmaker refuses/is unable to fix the glaring problems on the map (eat my ass ics)

    If you want new maps to potentially be added, look to techie with cp_rapids, pieman with synthetic, and defcon with cascade because they’re all skilled mapmakers who are extremely receptive to feedback. But at this point I wouldn’t be surprised if techie was just done with the HL community after invite players refused to test rapids because it didn’t have fucking decals on it. I know I would be.

  • If you want new maps to potentially be added, look to techie with cp_rapids, pieman with synthetic, and defcon with cascade because they’re all skilled mapmakers who are extremely receptive to feedback. But at this point I wouldn’t be surprised if techie was just done with the HL community after invite players refused to test rapids because it didn’t have fucking decals on it. I know I would be.

    @Alto MegaPieManHD is the creator of Synthetic and is currently on working on Midwest. Both Berryville and Midwest are textured. So the idea of having testing actual experimental maps is still not out of the question.

  • man what the fuck even happened with the new map pugs, I was so down to keep playing Rapids and see it come to life

    Three things. Borneo is fine, people just ree like idiots at the idea of maps being longer when there’s nothing inherently wrong with a long Payload, people just have incredibly short attention spans. Nothing inherently wrong with a Tele being a strong pick: are you seriously arguing that Engineer should remain unimportant??? Nothing inherently wrong with a map being defense-oriented, it’s okay to need to turn your brain on to make a push work. You get hyperspeed Vigil, it’s okay to have something at the other end of the spectrum.

    Berryville is an atrocious example of a map that could be added to the pool as walking around in it immediately presents irremediable problems within a Highlander context. It’s a 6s designed map that would immediately devolve into a worse-than-Product-fest of breaking through Demo and Sniper with every other class having no recourse. The fact of the matter is that virtually every map that has potential within Highlander has been already raised and given serious consideration. Like it or not, the candidate pool is extremely slim, and if you bring it up, it’s already been brought up and rejected because it’s just not workable. Whether or not you think these maps are good, they’re the only things we can use.

    And as regards both points above: can anyone here even formulate what exactly makes a good map? Why is fucking Product still held up as the gold standard, the KOTH map singlehandedly responsible for the entire Highlander community’s Stockholm syndrome towards their Demos and Snipers, for everyone somehow thinking it’s normal for 7/9 classes to simply not play the game and for KOTH to be braindead W-fests? There’s basically not a single argument here backed by any understanding of game design, everyone just yaps on about how “idk we’ve just always done it like this” and “oh no I don’t want to spend more than 10 minutes pushing :(”. Maybe you’re right or maybe you’re wrong, but I know damn well none of you would actually be able to figure out why.

    Maybe the reason we don’t get many new maps is because even we don’t know what the fuck we want. We just wanna show up and have a good goddamn time without the tedium of having a conscious thought pop into our brains.

    tl;dr everyone is a brainlet and doesn’t know what they’re saying

  • @Flare said in The RGL Expiremental Map Cup is Being Wasted.:

    tl;dr everyone is a brainlet and doesn’t know what they’re saying

    I don’t think being calling people in this thread dumb is a good idea to get them to see your perspective.

  • @firepow said in The RGL Expiremental Map Cup is Being Wasted.:

    @Flare said in The RGL Expiremental Map Cup is Being Wasted.:

    tl;dr everyone is a brainlet and doesn’t know what they’re saying

    I don’t think being calling people in this thread dumb is a good idea to get them to see your perspective.

    I’m on my last season, I’m long past giving a shit

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