The RGL Expiremental Map Cup is Being Wasted.

#1387
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  • @Ta5K Existing maps also have bugs. Lakeside had gameplay-impacting ones which weren’t fixed until this past season. Others have even been put into the rulebook as bugs which players are forbidden from exploiting, because they’re Never Getting Fixed. I don’t think “but maps might have bugs” is a reason not to actually experiment.

    The maps that are run in exp PUGs are not barely-playable alpha maps. They’re full maps which are just still in conversation, much as Vigil was not in its final state when it was introduced to HL.

    Furthermore, there are maps like Bagel which have already been played in sixes and are obviously season-ready. I have heard that Bagel is bad in HL, but Borneo and Ramjam have both already been played in seasons and rejected for being bad in HL, so like… why not at least switch it up so that we’re trying a new kind of bad instead of stale old bad?

  • @scaredy-bat I suppose you’re right about that. carry on then.

  • to me, it seems clear that rgl’s current goal is to find a larger selection of acceptable maps than just the standard 7 that get played every season - fe, if hl was to have ~10-13 total maps that people agreed were solid choices, the map pool could be shuffled around every season moreso than just rotating lakeside and cascade.

    this selection of maps makes more sense when this is considered - rgl is experimenting with modern players on older maps to see if they could fit into this extended pool - even if they’re considered not quite as popular as the current map pool, older maps could be rotated in and out without permanent changes to the main map pool. the decision to include older maps over some new maps in development is also a pretty good choice, since there must have been some reason those maps were included in the first place. even with flaws, these maps are safer bets than new maps that could have SEVERE issues which would require huge revisions and another map cup to test these revisions.

    and regardless, the many rgl zoomers (such as myself) in the game have never had the chance to play a season of hl on any maps outside of the main 8, making it an all-new experience for them anyway…

  • Borneo and Ramjam are goated maps.

  • someone needs to get some map maker who actually knows what they’re doing and give them millstone and just see what they do to fix that terrible last

  • @perenne said in The RGL Expiremental Map Cup is Being Wasted.:

    someone needs to get some map maker who actually knows what they’re doing and give them millstone and just see what they do to fix that terrible last

    You just want to see Wax do Wax strats again.

    (note: plz no, milstone was not good. Reminder that 1st was just one sniper fight+flank house, second was a throw away because the cap point was stupid forward. Third was a a hard hold. and last was just big, open and dumb.)

  • @dlphn said in The RGL Expiremental Map Cup is Being Wasted.:

    to me, it seems clear that rgl’s current goal is to find a larger selection of acceptable maps than just the standard 7 that get played every season

    I see your point, but I do have a problem with it. Personally, the goal of the map cup will not be clear until someone such as exa_ or WiLLmaTiC confirms what the purpose of the experimental map cup is. It will still feel like wasted potential for new maps.

    @dlphn said in The RGL Expiremental Map Cup is Being Wasted.:

    and regardless, the many rgl zoomers (such as myself) in the game have never had the chance to play a season of hl on any maps outside of the main 8, making it an all-new experience for them anyway…

    This is the point I agree with the most. Good post.

  • @dlphn said in The RGL Expiremental Map Cup is Being Wasted.:

    which would require huge revisions and another map cup to test these revisions.

    Except that they will never get to the stage of being acceptable because nobody will test them to get them to that stage and would rather return to old evils as a dog returneth to its vomit.

    New maps are not going to spring fully formed from the ground like soldiers from dragons’ teeth. We need to actually invest in their development as as community and as a league.

  • @dlphn said in The RGL Expiremental Map Cup is Being Wasted.:

    to me, it seems clear that rgl’s current goal is to find a larger selection of acceptable maps than just the standard 7 that get played every season

    the problem is that a lot of these maps like borneo and ramjam have clear flaws that make them basically unworkable against maps like upward, swiftwater, cascade, product, etc. and more crucially are 99% never going to be updated to fix said flaws

    new maps on the other hand will be updated and will continuously get better

  • @scaredy-bat said in The RGL Expiremental Map Cup is Being Wasted.:

    @dlphn said in The RGL Expiremental Map Cup is Being Wasted.:

    which would require huge revisions and another map cup to test these revisions.

    Except that they will never get to the stage of being acceptable because nobody will test them to get them to that stage and would rather return to old evils as a dog returneth to its vomit.

    New maps are not going to spring fully formed from the ground like soldiers from dragons’ teeth. We need to actually invest in their development as as community and as a league.

    EXACTLY

  • @dlphn I agree with dolphin here

    i started hl with rgl, I never played UGC. I would at least like to try the old maps that everyone says were meh and make up my own opinion rather than have someone with their head up their ass try to lecture me on why i shouldn’t even consider trying a map.

    Maybe they’re not quite as bad as we remember, perhaps metas have shifted since then, especially with different weapon bans. At the very least let the zoomers who’ve never had the opportunity to try these maps see how bad they are so we can end this discussion and not have to debate on whether or not we should include borneo or whatever in the map pool. Many of the maps listed in end of season polls as potential swap ins haven’t been played in years, how can me and a huge chunk of the rgl playerbase who have never played them properly vote on whether or not they should be played?

    Maps can still progress via testco and other map testing groups, map development isn’t going to grind to a screeching halt without this cup. Obviously getting an entire cup or even season would be ideal, but I also seriously doubt this is gonna be the last experimental cup ever.

    Also i’m speaking about this as a player, not as a staff member, I didn’t take any part in the decision for this experimental cup.

  • @tua There is no other comp map testing group for HL currently other than Testco, which has a Main+ division restriction, and for the last three weeks Testco playtests were DOA because nobody showed up. Several of these were directly competing with RGL PUGs at the same time.

    Either way, I think it’s a point worth making regardless of whether “but there will be other map cups in future!” If not now, when do we make our voices heard? Just wait and be completely reactive instead of proactive?

  • I am just going to state my opinion, although I do understand wanting to experience maps you haven’t played before.

    bad maps are no longer played for good reasons. I would rather us not waste time and resources re-learning lessons we have already learned years ago.

    new cascade should be tested because its new and has an active developer willing to work with us. we can find new issues and fix them, and add it into the rotation this season.

    None of the other maps will be added back in. because you guys will play them, re-experience the same things as its the same map, and we will repeat this process again in a year.

    No, 5cp and HL isnt fun and will never be fun due to the gamemode’s innate issues with the format. 6’s works with 5cp because 6’s was designed around that gamemode. Vanguard was made with HL in mind iirc and we played it a total of 3 times in UGC(?)

    ramjam is too big of a map for koth and while yes, we haven’t played it since UGC, the issues that were presented to the map developer were ignored and was not fixed. Also don’t use UGC as an example for anything good.

    borneo is a very long map. When your best pick as spy defending last is to sap the teleporter, its a bad map. when your engineer on offence runs full time EE for ez teles, its a bad map. Its the anthesis of vigil with cap times of 10 minutes not being bad.

    Millstone.

    Anyone remember badwater_pro? I think we are on version 20 of that map.

    anyone remember barnblitz_pro???


    Again, I understand you guys wanting to experience those maps that you haven’t before, but do them in your in-house pug groups instead.

  • @scaredy-bat said in The RGL Expiremental Map Cup is Being Wasted.:

    @tua There is no other comp map testing group for HL currently other than Testco, which has a Main+ division restriction, and for the last three weeks Testco playtests were DOA because nobody showed up. Several of these were directly competing with RGL PUGs at the same time.

    Either way, I think it’s a point worth making regardless of whether “but there will be other map cups in future!” If not now, when do we make our voices heard? Just wait and be completely reactive instead of proactive?

    I’m a little confused regarding what the argument you’re trying to make is. Experimental maps/versions have all received attention in the past, and will most likely receive attention in the future through cups and general events. Nobody(as far as I can tell) is arguing against the idea that newer competitive maps in development could use the additional testing.

    However, that just doesn’t seem like the main focus of this cup in particular, which is to revisit certain maps and to redetermine their viability. It doesn’t feel like a waste of a cup in the slightest as long as post-cup feedback regarding the maps is received.

    Though I can definitely see this thread as a call to action for highlander admins to host more cups during future offseason so that new maps can see proper testing. If there was an experimental cup every offseason, then who knows, Highlander could see major map changes in the future.
    However I also know that hosting these kinds of events can be time-intensive and draining for the organizers, so I appreciate the cups that we can get.

    Also just to make it easier for people to view exp cup map history:

    Exp Cup #1: synthetic_rc2, vanguard, millstone_v2
    Exp Cup #2: proside_rc2, vigil_rc4, synthetic_rc5
    Exp Cup #3: clearcut_b14d, synthetic_rc6a, ashville_rc2a
    Upcoming Exp Cup #4: cascade_v2_b5, ramjam_rc1, borneo

  • @Constantly If for one season and just one season the league announced they’d decided to replace Steel with Badwater because people hadn’t played Badwater in too long, I would also speak up and provide the feedback that I disagreed with this, regardless of whether Steel would be put back in and Badwater taken back out in future seasons.

    I don’t agree that revisiting old maps is a good use of an experimental map cup, regardless if newer players haven’t played it*, and I think committing to testing actual new maps is better for HL as a whole – especially when the non-Cascade maps are just there filling space and not actually likely candidates. At least if the “not actually likely candidate” maps were new maps, something of value for the future of comp would be gained (large amounts of comp playtesting feedback).


    *Mothership brings up 5CP as another thing that most new players haven’t done either, and honestly, at least there have been new 5CP maps developed since we stopped doing 5CP HL and it would at least be a slightly different variant of something ruled out in the past, rather than literally exactly the same thing.

  • @scaredy-bat said in The RGL Expiremental Map Cup is Being Wasted.:

    I don’t agree that revisiting old maps is a good use of an experimental map cup, regardless if newer players haven’t played it*, and I think committing to testing actual new maps is better for HL as a whole – especially when the non-Cascade maps are just there filling space and not actually likely candidates. At least if the “not actually likely candidate” maps were new maps, something of value for the future of comp would be gained (large amounts of comp playtesting feedback).

    This. Wasting 2 map slots to play-test the same mediocre maps that haven’t been updated in years over and over again won’t bring fresh life in the competitive scene. Especially for older players. Personally, it’s would be a lot more exciting to see maps that are being updated frequently such as pl_midwest get some more feedback in a Highlander setting. The only time I’ve seen midwest get played competitively is in RGL Prolander Pugs.

  • I don’t care as long as we never play 5CP again.

  • @scaredy-bat if i was rgl head admin, i would want a map’s inclusion in an experimental cup to be the final step in including that map in the pool. the value of an experimental cup (it seems to me) is to expose that map to players of all levels and gauge public opinion on it

    i don’t think a cup that runs every six months or whatever is a good choice for developer feedback on newmap_rc1 and then _rc2 and then _rc3 and then _rc3b before it is FINALLY ready to be added. this kind of testing should be reserved for pugs like testco (rest in peace), and that final, refined _rc3b version should be what’s included in the experimental cup

    at least, that’s the map development cycle i would be most interested in. i’m not a mapper or an admin

  • @dlphn Sure, and if I was RGL head admin, I would want a full rotating staff available to cover different shifts so that players could reach admin team members during game times and there’s always at least one mod on duty and everybody gets swapped off on the regular to avoid volunteer burnout. Also pizza and ice cream for all.

    We don’t have the castle in the sky, we have a hut on the ground. The relatively long period of time between cups is all the more reason why cups should not be wasting time on old, discredited maps.

  • Lota new players in here talking about maps being discredited that they have never played at any level of play, much less a high level of play… Borneo and ramjam have their issues, but that doesn’t discount them as fun maps to play in the competitive scene. Imo borneo and ramjam being in rotation once a year each would be very fun. Borneo’s biggest issues are last (name a pl map without a crap last… I’ll wait) and the fact that it takes a while to push (although I think that is simply a part of the map and not an actual problem). Ramjam’s issue is basically that it’s a little larger than most koth maps, but in my experience, it is still very fun and much more fun than cascade (although I haven’t played the new version that is being tested in the cup).

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