Addressing Racism/Anti-LGBTQ Speech on Off-Platform Media

#876
Topic created · 460 Posts · 1028 Views
  • @Xenagos we’ve used all arguments against this, including ones that you think are “bad” because someone has thin skin.

    This rule would be a breach of privacy, an overreach by RGL, and would just be a turn off for any new players looking to play in the league

  • @Kastaling morality is subjective and is a bad anecdote to use. rgl has a image to uphold and if people think its just a bunch of jamers yelling out the N word here and there. it makes them look bad.

    now its a bit much in the “ethical” and workload department to have rgl police peoples private discord so it more than likely wont happen.

    just dont say it during scrims or on the forums

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  • these arguments are always such a pain in the ass tbh because the inherent moral high ground in “stop saying slurs” automatically makes anyone arguing against it look like a mouthbreather

    The root problem, as I see it, comes from the fact that many tf2 players conflate their “RGL experience” (which is a professional/public setting and should be held to a certain standard of conduct) with their own private social lives (private setting held to a lower standard). it’s RGL’s job to ensure that all experiences necessary to reasonably partake in their league are held to that aforementioned “certain standard of conduct.” Currently, these “experiences” are defined as pretty much everything RGL-sponsored (including but not limited to RGL pugs, forums, matches, and discord servers), as well as “optional” scrims.

    I think the move to punish players for offenses in scrims is a very good move, because realistically scrims are necessary for meaningful participation in RGL and thus should be held under the same rules as everything else. It’s worth noting that including scrims as an essential part of the RGL experience differs vastly from other leagues and was met with understandable backlash, but again, I personally think it’s for the better.

    However, privately-run PUG groups are not essential to the RGL experience. I think RGL’s reluctance to definitively rule private pug groups as “not in our jurisdiction” makes this problem a lot worse than it could be, but that’s an off topic gripe. Private PUG groups, from RGL’s perspective, exist for social purposes first and game-related purposes second. No arguments. Regardless of the stated aims of the creators or players of these groups, they are secondary to the things already under the “RGL Umbrella”, as it were. You are willingly choosing to enter these private spaces on your own, and demanding those inside be held accountable feels like a vast, vast overreach of what a TF2 league should be doing.

    If an individual is concerned about experiencing slurs/hate/etc, all experiences deemed essential and necessary to participate in RGL are (reasonably) safe spaces. Anyone can safely experience RGL, or at least have the knowledge anyone violating that safety will be punished.

    If I solo Q a game of CSGO or LoL and my teammates invite me to their discord afterwards for some inhouse games and they immediately start shrieking the n-word, is it reasonable for me to expect Valve/Riot to ban them for those actions? I think you’d be hard-pressed to find anyone who’d legitimately think it’d be a wise use of resources or judgment. Why is this? Because the size of those companies and those games make the distance between end-user and producer/admin clear. Regardless of your personal feelings on those actions, crying to Riot/Valve would be stupid at worst and nobly futile at best.

    So why do we expect RGL to do the opposite? I honestly think it’s just an issue of size and the peculiarity of the tf2 community in regards to how much more tight-knit and “full-time” it is compared to other games. The playerbase is small enough that you can make meaningful friendships and form strong communities that are meaningful in the large-scale of the scene’s fabric. I think that’s wonderful, but I also think it’s not RGL’s responsibility. Are there meaningful differences between Riot and RGL? Of course. But as “providers of an entertainment service”, I think the standard applied to both should be the same.

    I’m trying to read into the motivations of this post, @Ampy, and here’s what I’m getting:
    -You aren’t doing this solely out of selfless concern for the league
    -You couldn’t have thought this would get you clout considering the make up of the community
    -You’re clearly passionate about this issue
    So my guess is that you (or someone you care about) was hurt by certain malicious things said by others. I think that’s honorable and this conversation is a good one to have. So I apologize for coming off a little crass, but,

    Why should RGL have (or even want) to watchdog your optional, private, social interactions?

  • @Kastaling said in Addressing Racism/Anti-LGBTQ Speech on Off-Platform Media:

    Once again, I say this; GROW THICKER SKIN.

    Unfortunately, this always tends to be a bit of a strawman and really doesn’t work in context. That’s mainly because growing thicker skin is not an option for some people.

    Although some of you may not believe it based on my earlier posts, I am not easily offended. When someone uses one of the “big three” slurs or others, I can easily laugh it off. I can even use the one that applies to me in certain people’s company. Because of this, I have the privileged position of being able to simply ignore, or make a reasoned/civil argument, when someone expresses opinions that directly derogate someone’s identity. Even though one of the “big three” slurs applies to me, I really don’t care or get offended, on a personal level, when someone uses that slur. But not everyone has this position.

    I’ve come to know several people who, because of who they are, have been disowned, kicked out of their houses, lost any hope at inheritance they had, ostracized by their school communities, passed up for jobs because of what bathroom they came out of, or at worst, even attacked because of who they are.

    Some of these people used to be in RGL. There may be some like them still in RGL.

    I ask you: Is it fair to place the burden of growing thicker skin on them, who have already had to deal with countless burdens in their lives? Is it fair to say that they, who have this constant reminder in the form of a word of the hardships they have suffered, are the ones at wrong because they are offended by a word whose existence so many people take lightly?

    This is not about a minority imposing its will on the majority, either. I think you will find that most people in or outside the league, whether or not they support OP, are opposed to the use of racial slurs because in whatever context they are used, they demean people.

    So the fact that this discussion is about “growing thicker skin” shows how prevalent this rot, if you will, is within the TF2 community. The burden should rightfully be on those who use slurs to not use slurs, an action which can directly cause harm. Any less is an attitude that tells everyone that you (not you, Kastaling, just the audience of this post in general) are more important than the people who would be harmed. And so this discussion should not be about thick skin or thin skin at all, or if it is right or wrong to say slurs. It should be about whether it is feasible or not for RGL to act off of reports gathered on such platforms, and what should be the extent of this.

  • I’m gonna change my position after a bit of thinking. I can see why, in terms of enforcement, private team chats would be a bit of a pain, in terms of faked reports, infeasibility of investigating, etc. Therefore I now believe that RGL should only deal with instances of targeted harassment in multiple areas of one person outside league chats, and it should respond to reports only for public places or RGL spaces - say, twitch streams that anyone can access, or public forums (TFTV, ETF2L, what have you) or public chats.

  • I appreciate the good criticism and feedback Alto. I’ll try my best to answer best I can.

    I will go ahead place the disclaimers here: This discussion was started before I was even awake on the day of the posting, and eventually we were asked to move to the forum. I figured no one else would really do it, so I decided to stick my neck out and make the post. There is no clout to be gained here, if anything it’s probably only going to(or already has) hurt my reputation. I don’t mind it, because for the people that will look down upon my reputation, I probably wouldn’t want to interact with them in the first place.

    I am passionate about human rights issues, even if I am not personally affected by them. I’d go so far as to say I’m a pretty politically active debater, as I quite enjoy public discourse. You are correct in stating I am not doing this solely out of concern for the league itself, but for those that potentially could/would be affected by something I think should be curbed. I do know people in my life who have been affected by hate speech, but I prefer to try and keep as objective a view as possible in regards to my emotions when I make arguments.

    With all of that said…

    I can understand your argument, and would like to raise an objection that pug groups are essential. I find it incredibly unlikely that people will grow to higher level TF2 based solely on scrim time and matches alone. Consistently throughout my career I’ve been instructed or advised to join pugs to improve. It is not absolutely necessary, but I think players would severely hamper their growth and improvements by not taking this advice. Which then leads to the issue at hand of all the pug groups I’m aware of being filled with the toxic behavior.

    In the case of using a game of CSGO or LoL as a reference: The main difference is that we are treating this as a competitive league, not going onto the ranked ladder. The actual comparison would (for NA) the LCS, LCS Academy, and Collegiate League for LoL (using this as a reference as I know the most about it.) To explain the similarities for those unaware: the LCS would be considered the Invite/Div-1/Challenger of TF2, the Academy would be the Div-2/Adv/Main, and Collegiate would be IM and lower. In all of these cases, as competitive leagues sponsored or run by Riot Games, they are subject to rules that include punishment for Hate Speech used by teammates. Fines, suspensions, bans, etc. These players are subject to it out of game too, so they must always be on guard in that situation if they wish to continue playing the game competitively under Riot Games.

    I think it’s completely reasonable to assume that RGL can have the same capacity to handle such issues, if they so desired. If I missed anything to respond to in your post, feel free to let me know and I’ll address it, but I believe I got everything.

    @vibeisveryo

    I have not addressed the “thick skin” argument for that exact reason. I would actually say I have pretty thick skin. It does not pain me to see someone called the n-word in front of me for instance. I am sympathetic to the issue, however people like to assume the two are interchangeable.

    To your second post: enforcing the system is not fool-proof as I mentioned, but I think it is something that would prove difficult to start with, but given enough time would mellow out and become manageable as eventually the problem will dissipate due to bans or people hiding away their hate speech much more carefully.

  • @Ampy said in Addressing Racism/Anti-LGBTQ Speech on Off-Platform Media:

    I can understand your argument, and would like to raise an objection that pug groups are essential. I find it incredibly unlikely that people will grow to higher level TF2 based solely on scrim time and matches alone. Consistently throughout my career I’ve been instructed or advised to join pugs to improve. It is not absolutely necessary, but I think players would severely hamper their growth and improvements by not taking this advice. Which then leads to the issue at hand of all the pug groups I’m aware of being filled with the toxic behavior.

    Hopefully RGL Pugs on launch will help mitigate this, with greater accessibility and reach than Discord Pugs.

  • @Kastaling said in Addressing Racism/Anti-LGBTQ Speech on Off-Platform Media:

    @Ampy Once again, I say this; GROW THICKER SKIN.

    How does one grow thicker skin though? Saying this as your solution is dumb as there is no proven solution to stop the pain from hate speech.

    I will say however, I think the current system with RGL is good. I don’t want all off-platform hate speech to be punishable, because that would just start huge shitshow. I do agree with the current rules of punishable harassment however. Which include:

    • Verbal abuse, offensive behavior, or hate speech made towards a player (through any medium) that makes them feel uncomfortable or threatened

    • Threatening to dox or harm another player

    • Stalking

    • Circumventing another player’s block over Steam/Discord/other social media"

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  • he’s not the team leader?

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  • @vibeisveryo said in Addressing Racism/Anti-LGBTQ Speech on Off-Platform Media:

    and it should respond to reports only for public places or RGL spaces - say, twitch streams that anyone can access, or public forums (TFTV, ETF2L, what have you) or public chats.

    This is the bit that is different from the current policy – non-RGL-owned publicly accessible spaces are currently considered offplatform just like private Discords.

  • People are all over this thread trying to defend anything racist or sexist as some sort of “lol get thick skin”, “all in good fun and you don’t get the comedy”, or “protect muh free speech to say the n word”.

    Keep fighting the good fight guys.

  • Im so excited we’re adding more unnecessary regulations to further filter out people who just wanted to play a videogame in an already niche community. This will never backfire.

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  • Why is it so crazy that racist people should be held accountable for the slurs that they spew. It’s not a lot to ask someone to not say slurs especially considering how ever changing our world is, and giving hate speech a platform isn’t at all a way to further this community.

  • i would love for people to get banned for saying the funny words but in the long run its not worth it fixing, like that legit means u would have to fix every gaming community an i highly doubt rgl has that power i dont like it but its probably not fixable gg

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